Bad skill or bad luck ??

On Sep 23, 9:25?pm, A Man Beaten by Jacks <nob....DeleteThis@fool.foo> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 21:20:23 -0700, alan <mone....DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:
> >On Sep 23, 9:04?pm, A Man Beaten by Jacks <nob....DeleteThis@fool.foo> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:54:08 -0700, alan <mone....DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >Indulge me please, for a minute, and play this "game."
> >> >I will give you three hands involving you (player A) and one opponent
> >> >(player B). You (player A) will lose each hand. In each hand both you
> >> >and your opponent are all-in pre flop.
> >> Really, how you ended up all-in preflop is more important than that you did.
> >> If being all-in preflop is the definition of the game, then obviously skill
> >> is completely irrelevant.
> >Okay, since you are turning this around... should player B have been
> >all in? did skill dictate that player B should be all in??
>
> Given what attendant circumstances?

I cant tell you. these were not my hands. I dont know the thought
processes for both players. All I know is that two players were in
the hands, all in. the "superior hand" lost in all three cases. was
this bad skill or bad luck?
 >> Stay informed about: Bad skill or bad luck ?? 

> Did you lose because of bad skill or bad luck??

The problem is alan, because there's more to poker than your hole cards,
you are asking questions that really can't be answered.

If you want to know the math, figure it out for yourself. Go download
pokerstove, or go to an online hand calculator like www.twodimes.net and
plug in the hands to see. In all 3 cases the AK was a favorite, yes. But
what does that mean? Are you trying to pull some elaborate troll to jump
to the conclusion that because AK got unlucky that you shouldn't move
all-in preflop with it? If so, don't bother.

Anyway, you're getting to the point where no one is going to want to reply
to your posts anymore. What's the point behind these questions?

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy DeleteThis @donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

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 >> Stay informed about: Bad skill or bad luck ?? 

These hands prove, beyond a doubt, that poker is a game of luck.
Skill is irrelevant.

Happy now?

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:54:08 -0700, alan <moneyla RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:

>Indulge me please, for a minute, and play this "game."
>
>I will give you three hands involving you (player A) and one opponent
>(player B). You (player A) will lose each hand. In each hand both you
>and your opponent are all-in pre flop. In each hand you and your
>opponent have an equal amount of starting chips. Tell me if you lost
>because of bad skill or bad luck.
>
>Hand #1 You have AK offsuit, your opponent has AT offsuit. Your
>opponent wins when there is a T on the board.
>
>Hand #2 You have AK suited, your oppenent has A2 offsuit. Your
>opponent wins when there is a 2 on the board.
>
>Hand #3 You have AK of hearts, and yoru opponent has 6-7 of hearts.
>Your opponent wins when there is a 6 on the board.
>
>Did you lose because of bad skill or bad luck??
>
>thanks.

--

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MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
 >> Stay informed about: Bad skill or bad luck ?? 

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:54:08 -0700, alan <moneyla.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:

>Indulge me please, for a minute, and play this "game."

>I will give you three hands involving you (player A) and one opponent
>(player B). You (player A) will lose each hand. In each hand both you
>and your opponent are all-in pre flop.

Really, how you ended up all-in preflop is more important than that you did.
If being all-in preflop is the definition of the game, then obviously skill
is completely irrelevant.
 >> Stay informed about: Bad skill or bad luck ?? 

alan wrote:
> On Sep 23, 9:04?pm, A Man Beaten by Jacks <nob....TakeThisOut@fool.foo> wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:54:08 -0700, alan <mone....TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Indulge me please, for a minute, and play this "game."
>>> I will give you three hands involving you (player A) and one opponent
>>> (player B). You (player A) will lose each hand. In each hand both you
>>> and your opponent are all-in pre flop.
>> Really, how you ended up all-in preflop is more important than that you did.
>> If being all-in preflop is the definition of the game, then obviously skill
>> is completely irrelevant.
>
> Okay, since you are turning this around... should player B have been
> all in? did skill dictate that player B should be all in??
>


Listen carefully. This advice will save you years of misery:

IT DOES NOT MATTER.

You lost. Re-load or go home.

--
Kenneth Sloan KennethRSloan.TakeThisOut@gmail.com
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/
 >> Stay informed about: Bad skill or bad luck ?? 

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 21:20:23 -0700, alan <moneyla RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:

>On Sep 23, 9:04?pm, A Man Beaten by Jacks <nob... RemoveThis @fool.foo> wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:54:08 -0700, alan <mone... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
>> >Indulge me please, for a minute, and play this "game."
>> >I will give you three hands involving you (player A) and one opponent
>> >(player B). You (player A) will lose each hand. In each hand both you
>> >and your opponent are all-in pre flop.

>> Really, how you ended up all-in preflop is more important than that you did.
>> If being all-in preflop is the definition of the game, then obviously skill
>> is completely irrelevant.

>Okay, since you are turning this around... should player B have been
>all in? did skill dictate that player B should be all in??

Given what attendant circumstances?
 >> Stay informed about: Bad skill or bad luck ?? 

On Sep 23, 11:54 pm, alan <mone....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
> Indulge me please, for a minute, and play this "game."
>
> I will give you three hands involving you (player A) and one opponent
> (player B). You (player A) will lose each hand. In each hand both you
> and your opponent are all-in pre flop. In each hand you and your
> opponent have an equal amount of starting chips. Tell me if you lost
> because of bad skill or bad luck.
>
> Hand #1 You have AK offsuit, your opponent has AT offsuit. Your
> opponent wins when there is a T on the board.
>
> Hand #2 You have AK suited, your oppenent has A2 offsuit. Your
> opponent wins when there is a 2 on the board.
>
> Hand #3 You have AK of hearts, and yoru opponent has 6-7 of hearts.
> Your opponent wins when there is a 6 on the board.
>
> Did you lose because of bad skill or bad luck??
>
> thanks.

Being all-in preflop with a drawing hand against an opponent that has
you covered isn't real skillful. The exception may be being the first
in the pot severely shortstacked, but then again, it still requires no
skill.
 >> Stay informed about: Bad skill or bad luck ?? 

I'd say bad skill at a bad beat whine.

On Sep 23 2007 11:54 PM, alan wrote:

> Indulge me please, for a minute, and play this "game."
>
> I will give you three hands involving you (player A) and one opponent
> (player B). You (player A) will lose each hand. In each hand both you
> and your opponent are all-in pre flop. In each hand you and your
> opponent have an equal amount of starting chips. Tell me if you lost
> because of bad skill or bad luck.
>
> Hand #1 You have AK offsuit, your opponent has AT offsuit. Your
> opponent wins when there is a T on the board.
>
> Hand #2 You have AK suited, your oppenent has A2 offsuit. Your
> opponent wins when there is a 2 on the board.
>
> Hand #3 You have AK of hearts, and yoru opponent has 6-7 of hearts.
> Your opponent wins when there is a 6 on the board.
>
> Did you lose because of bad skill or bad luck??
>
> thanks.



_______________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
 >> Stay informed about: Bad skill or bad luck ?? 

On Sep 23, 10:06?pm, Kenneth Sloan <KennethRSl... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> alan wrote:
> > On Sep 23, 9:04?pm, A Man Beaten by Jacks <nob... RemoveThis @fool.foo> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:54:08 -0700, alan <mone... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
> >>> Indulge me please, for a minute, and play this "game."
> >>> I will give you three hands involving you (player A) and one opponent
> >>> (player B). You (player A) will lose each hand. In each hand both you
> >>> and your opponent are all-in pre flop.
> >> Really, how you ended up all-in preflop is more important than that you did.
> >> If being all-in preflop is the definition of the game, then obviously skill
> >> is completely irrelevant.
>
> > Okay, since you are turning this around... should player B have been
> > all in? did skill dictate that player B should be all in??
>
> Listen carefully. This advice will save you years of misery:
>
> IT DOES NOT MATTER.
>
> You lost. Re-load or go home.
>
> --
> Kenneth Sloan KennethRSl... RemoveThis @gmail.com
> Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
> University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
> Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

No. I didnt lose. I was at those tables in three different
tournaments, and watched good players, playing sound hands, getting
beat by shear luck.

Frankly (and I am going to draw fire here) it has made me come to
think that no matter how skilled you are, luck dominates the game.

Sure, skill is a factor, but luck DOMINATES the game. it is not the
other way around.

Seeing those good players lose with good hands, to dumb calls from
dumb players who got lucky just made me sick.

And it happened more than three times... I just gave those examples.

Skill is basic... you play good hands, you bet according to your
cards, to the board, to the possibility of drawing... but it is luck
that will determine your fate. Luck.

kind of disgusting, I think.
 >> Stay informed about: Bad skill or bad luck ?? 

On Sep 23, 10:08?pm, "XaQ Morphy" <a1c5... DeleteThis @webnntp.invalid> wrote:
> > Did you lose because of bad skill or bad luck??
>
> The problem is alan, because there's more to poker than your hole cards,
> you are asking questions that really can't be answered.
>
> If you want to know the math, figure it out for yourself. Go download
> pokerstove, or go to an online hand calculator likewww.twodimes.netand
> plug in the hands to see. In all 3 cases the AK was a favorite, yes. But
> what does that mean? Are you trying to pull some elaborate troll to jump
> to the conclusion that because AK got unlucky that you shouldn't move
> all-in preflop with it? If so, don't bother.
>
> Anyway, you're getting to the point where no one is going to want to reply
> to your posts anymore. What's the point behind these questions?
>
> ---
> Morphy
> xaqmor... DeleteThis @donkeymanifesto.comhttp://www.donkeymanifesto.com
>
> -----
> RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com

Morph wrote: "you're getting to the point where no one is going to
want to reply to your posts anymore."

Perhaps you shouldn't.

thanks.
 >> Stay informed about: Bad skill or bad luck ?? 

It's neither, it's Pokerstars.

Their motto is:

 "POKERSTARS...much more exciting than poker!" 

On Sep 23 2007 8:54 PM, alan wrote:

> Indulge me please, for a minute, and play this "game."
>
> I will give you three hands involving you (player A) and one opponent
> (player B). You (player A) will lose each hand. In each hand both you
> and your opponent are all-in pre flop. In each hand you and your
> opponent have an equal amount of starting chips. Tell me if you lost
> because of bad skill or bad luck.
>
> Hand #1 You have AK offsuit, your opponent has AT offsuit. Your
> opponent wins when there is a T on the board.
>
> Hand #2 You have AK suited, your oppenent has A2 offsuit. Your
> opponent wins when there is a 2 on the board.
>
> Hand #3 You have AK of hearts, and yoru opponent has 6-7 of hearts.
> Your opponent wins when there is a 6 on the board.
>
> Did you lose because of bad skill or bad luck??
>
> thanks.



_______________________________________________________________
Your Online Poker Community - http://www.recpoker.com
 >> Stay informed about: Bad skill or bad luck ?? 

On Sep 24, 6:03 am, alan <mone... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:
>
> Skill is basic... you play good hands, you bet according to your
> cards, to the board, to the possibility of drawing... but it is luck
> that will determine your fate. Luck.


It's easy to understand the way that you feel and obvious that you
haven't had enough experience to really understand the game. In order
to overcome the way that you're thinking, you need to study the game
and educate yourself.

Poker is like no other game that you've probably observed. It's not a
sporting event that determines a winner in 4 quarters, or nine innings
or 18 holes.

Yes, there is luck involved, but that is not what will determine your
fate. Sure, if you're just considering the outcome of one session,
then luck can be a determining factor, but if you study the game and
gain more experience, you'll learn that poker is a game of long term
results. Playing winning poker is determined in months, even years -
not an afternoon at a table.

The game is based on probability and winning is a matter playing out
the time it takes to allow those probabilities to play themself out.
Given enough trials, the correct odds of a particular event happening
do eventually become a reality.

AK suited is about a 3:1 favorite to win against A2 offsuit. That
doesn't necessarily mean that the AK will win three times out of four
trials. A2 could conceivably win the first 382 trials because there is
luck involved. But given enough trials - could take years or even
longer than the time you have left in this life - the AK will
eventually win 3/4s of the trials. Might take 6 billion trials before
that happens, but it will eventually happen. Usually odds become
apparent after just a short time, but there's no guarantee of exactly
when. Seeing AK lose to weaker hands 3 times in a row or even 100
times in a row has no meaningful purpose for discussion of poker.

Someone once said, in fact a lot of people have said, so I don't know
where it originated - Good luck is what happens when preparation meets
opportunity.

Just keep learning the game until you understand how to play the odds
properly, learn some about betting strategy, and you will become a
winning player.
 >> Stay informed about: Bad skill or bad luck ?? 

On Sep 23 2007 9:20 PM, alan wrote:

> On Sep 23, 9:04?pm, A Man Beaten by Jacks <nob... DeleteThis @fool.foo> wrote:
> > On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:54:08 -0700, alan <mone... DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote:
> > >Indulge me please, for a minute, and play this "game."
> > >I will give you three hands involving you (player A) and one opponent
> > >(player B). You (player A) will lose each hand. In each hand both you
> > >and your opponent are all-in pre flop.
> >
> > Really, how you ended up all-in preflop is more important than that you
did.
> > If being all-in preflop is the definition of the game, then obviously skill
> > is completely irrelevant.
>
> Okay, since you are turning this around... should player B have been
> all in? did skill dictate that player B should be all in??

Against a tight player like you Alan, I would be moving all-in an awful
lot.

Fell

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 >> Stay informed about: Bad skill or bad luck ??