Call or Fold? Help please

On Mar 17 2008 1:44 AM, KookieMonstr wrote:

>
> Not sure if I made a good play or not.  I'll set up a little.  Short-staked @
> MTT.  Blinds $100/200, I have 1670 with $200 commited in the BB.  My hand if
> 56o.  Min raise, there's two callers and I am getting 7.5:1 to close the
> betting.  The flop gives me a gutshot and the bet is $600.  I didn't think my
> current pot odds were better than 2:1 so I folded.  But I might have had
> implied
> odds.  Interested in thoughts.  HH follows;
>
> Dealt to KookieMonstr [5d 6c]
> Wielo: folds
> TrulyRaNd0m: folds
> alacruz: raises 200 to 400
> Zomni: calls 400
> wmariner: folds
> Jake231: calls 400
> SABICCS: folds
> letontondu64: folds
> KookieMonstr: calls 200
> *** FLOP *** [Kc 8d 4h]
> KookieMonstr: checks
> alacruz: checks
> Zomni: checks
> Jake231: bets 600
> KookieMonstr: folds
> alacruz: folds
> Zomni: calls 600
> *** TURN *** [Kc 8d 4h] [7c]
> Zomni: checks
> Jake231: bets 600
> Zomni: calls 600
> *** RIVER *** [Kc 8d 4h 7c] [9d]
> Zomni: checks
> Jake231: checks
> *** SHOW DOWN ***
> Zomni: shows [Ah 8h] (a pair of Eights)
> Jake231: shows [Qc Kh] (a pair of Kings)
> Jake231 collected 4100 from pot

Fold to the mini-raise and move on with your 1470, get ready to move on with
your 1370.

Implied odds? If you call the 600 you have 670 left.

Bryan

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On Mar 17, 1:44 am, KookieMonstr <alower... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> Not sure if I made a good play or not. I'll set up a little. Short-staked @
> MTT. Blinds $100/200, I have 1670 with $200 commited in the BB. My hand if
> 56o. Min raise, there's two callers and I am getting 7.5:1 to close the
> betting. The flop gives me a gutshot and the bet is $600. I didn't think my
> current pot odds were better than 2:1 so I folded. But I might have had implied
> odds. Interested in thoughts. HH follows;
>
> Dealt to KookieMonstr [5d 6c]
> Wielo: folds
> TrulyRaNd0m: folds
> alacruz: raises 200 to 400
> Zomni: calls 400
> wmariner: folds
> Jake231: calls 400
> SABICCS: folds
> letontondu64: folds
> KookieMonstr: calls 200
> *** FLOP *** [Kc 8d 4h]
> KookieMonstr: checks
> alacruz: checks
> Zomni: checks
> Jake231: bets 600
> KookieMonstr: folds
> alacruz: folds
> Zomni: calls 600
> *** TURN *** [Kc 8d 4h] [7c]
> Zomni: checks
> Jake231: bets 600
> Zomni: calls 600
> *** RIVER *** [Kc 8d 4h 7c] [9d]
> Zomni: checks
> Jake231: checks
> *** SHOW DOWN ***
> Zomni: shows [Ah 8h] (a pair of Eights)
> Jake231: shows [Qc Kh] (a pair of Kings)
> Jake231 collected 4100 from pot
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites -http://www.recpoker.com

I would fold this preflop. Even with 7.5:1 odds, your hand is very
weak. And with your chip stack, you cannot really continue in the
hand without at least flopping a straight or two pair. Even an OESD
is not necessarily a great outcome and a single pair is gonna lose
most of the time and forget about that gutshot. So you have to ask
yourself if you are going to like the flop once every 7.5 times. I
don't think so.

The difference is that in deep stack play, you can call with this hand
because you can see a turn card for a lower percentage of your stack
(i.e. relatively cheaply), can possibly outplay your opponents and
have implied odds. So now there are more flops you can play past into
the turn, like that gutshot in some (good) cases. Plus, you have fold
equity due to the deep stacks so you can pick spots to bluff or semi-
bluff.

In other words, as a short stack, your post flop actions are limited,
you implied odds are very low and every BB you throw away is very
expensive.
 >> Stay informed about: Call or Fold? Help please 

On Mar 17, 11:04 am, PantsOnFire <m... RemoveThis @sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Mar 17, 1:44 am, KookieMonstr <alower... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Not sure if I made a good play or not.  I'll set up a little.  Short-staked @
> > MTT.  Blinds $100/200, I have 1670 with $200 commited in the BB.  My hand if
> > 56o.  Min raise, there's two callers and I am getting 7.5:1 to close the
> > betting.  The flop gives me a gutshot and the bet is $600.  I didn't think my
> > current pot odds were better than 2:1 so I folded.  But I might have had implied
> > odds.  Interested in thoughts.  HH follows;
>
> > Dealt to KookieMonstr [5d 6c]
> > Wielo: folds
> > TrulyRaNd0m: folds
> > alacruz: raises 200 to 400
> > Zomni: calls 400
> > wmariner: folds
> > Jake231: calls 400
> > SABICCS: folds
> > letontondu64: folds
> > KookieMonstr: calls 200
> > *** FLOP *** [Kc 8d 4h]
> > KookieMonstr: checks
> > alacruz: checks
> > Zomni: checks
> > Jake231: bets 600
> > KookieMonstr: folds
> > alacruz: folds
> > Zomni: calls 600
> > *** TURN *** [Kc 8d 4h] [7c]
> > Zomni: checks
> > Jake231: bets 600
> > Zomni: calls 600
> > *** RIVER *** [Kc 8d 4h 7c] [9d]
> > Zomni: checks
> > Jake231: checks
> > *** SHOW DOWN ***
> > Zomni: shows [Ah 8h] (a pair of Eights)
> > Jake231: shows [Qc Kh] (a pair of Kings)
> > Jake231 collected 4100 from pot
>
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites -http://www.recpoker.com
>
> I would fold this preflop.  Even with 7.5:1 odds, your hand is very
> weak.  And with your chip stack, you cannot really continue in the
> hand without at least flopping a straight or two pair.  Even an OESD
> is not necessarily a great outcome and a single pair is gonna lose
> most of the time and forget about that gutshot.  So you have to ask
> yourself if you are going to like the flop once every 7.5 times.  I
> don't think so.
>
> The difference is that in deep stack play, you can call with this hand
> because you can see a turn card for a lower percentage of your stack
> (i.e. relatively cheaply), can possibly outplay your opponents and
> have implied odds.  So now there are more flops you can play past into
> the turn, like that gutshot in some (good) cases.  Plus, you have fold
> equity due to the deep stacks so you can pick spots to bluff or semi-
> bluff.
>
> In other words, as a short stack, your post flop actions are limited,
> you implied odds are very low and every BB you throw away is very
> expensive.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
 >> Stay informed about: Call or Fold? Help please 

On Mar 17, 1:20 pm, Tanya AKA MissT74 <43084....TakeThisOut@recpoker.com> wrote:
>
> > I have to ask you what kind of flops you would like to see with that
> > hand? And for each of those flops (that you don't check/fold) what
> > are your actions? And I would put your fold equity close to zero so
> > you will get called if you do move in.
>
> > And don't forget that if you go in and double up a couple of hands
> > later, that extra 200 you donated this hand represents another 200
> > that you didn't double up on or 400 less than someone who folded that
> > in that BB.
>
> I'm hoping to see any kind of flop that hits my hand, a pair, trips, 2 pair,
> open ended str8 draw, but NOT a gutshot. If it hits, I'm first to act, I push
> (Stop and Go??) and pray. Otherwise, if I don't hit the flop, I wait again.
> Getting 7.5:1 for the preflop call just makes it obvious that it's a call, imo,
> if you're playing statistical poker.
>
> T
Okay, that's a lot of flops that you would like. However, I don't
think you mean that you would shove all those flops. What about the
monotone flops (e.g. AhQh5h), xx5 or xx6 where xx is two over cards.
And if you shove an OESD with your almost zero fold equity any pair
higher than a 7 will make that move -EV or even money (especially if
there is a flush draw or you are not drawing to the nut straight).

Here is another factor to consider. When playing NL tournaments, and
especially near the end game, we want to try to avoid making mistakes
by avoiding tough decisions. Unless the flop is very good and shoving
is an easy decision or the flop is very bad and folding is an easy
decision, then all the other in between flops will be hard decisions.
You want to avoid that.

So basically, you are near the end of a NL tournament, in a pot with
three opponents where the pot is the same size as your stack, you have
two low non-suited connected cards and are out of position. And you
voluntarily put in 12.5% of your stack for that honour. Does it sound
as good now?
quoted text -
 >> Stay informed about: Call or Fold? Help please 

On Mar 17, 4:33 pm, Tanya AKA MissT74 <43084....TakeThisOut@recpoker.com> wrote:

>
> Depends on what your M is before the call/fold scenario, and what it is after.
>
> Where did you come from, btw? Have I been gone that long?
>
> T
>
I used to post here a few years ago. I just picked it up again a few
months ago basically because my work website filter doesn't allow many
gambling-orientated sites through (like my main ones 2+2 and pocket
fives).

In repsonse to your question, I agree there are several other factors
like when the blinds are going up and the reads on the opponents. And
I rarely purport to being right. I simply pick a course of action and
try to explain my reasoning. If nobody had any counterpoints, we
wouldn't learn a damn thing.
 >> Stay informed about: Call or Fold? Help please 

On Mar 17 2008 9:04 AM, PantsOnFire wrote:

> On Mar 17, 1:44 am, KookieMonstr wrote:
> > Not sure if I made a good play or not. I'll set up a little. Short-staked
> > @
> > MTT. Blinds $100/200, I have 1670 with $200 commited in the BB. My hand if
> > 56o. Min raise, there's two callers and I am getting 7.5:1 to close the
> > betting. The flop gives me a gutshot and the bet is $600. I didn't think
> > my
> > current pot odds were better than 2:1 so I folded. But I might have had
> > implied
> > odds. Interested in thoughts. HH follows;
> >
> > Dealt to KookieMonstr [5d 6c]
> > Wielo: folds
> > TrulyRaNd0m: folds
> > alacruz: raises 200 to 400
> > Zomni: calls 400
> > wmariner: folds
> > Jake231: calls 400
> > SABICCS: folds
> > letontondu64: folds
> > KookieMonstr: calls 200
> > *** FLOP *** [Kc 8d 4h]
> > KookieMonstr: checks
> > alacruz: checks
> > Zomni: checks
> > Jake231: bets 600
> > KookieMonstr: folds
> > alacruz: folds
> > Zomni: calls 600
> > *** TURN *** [Kc 8d 4h] [7c]
> > Zomni: checks
> > Jake231: bets 600
> > Zomni: calls 600
> > *** RIVER *** [Kc 8d 4h 7c] [9d]
> > Zomni: checks
> > Jake231: checks
> > *** SHOW DOWN ***
> > Zomni: shows [Ah 8h] (a pair of Eights)
> > Jake231: shows [Qc Kh] (a pair of Kings)
> > Jake231 collected 4100 from pot
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites -/
>
> I would fold this preflop. Even with 7.5:1 odds, your hand is very
> weak. And with your chip stack, you cannot really continue in the
> hand without at least flopping a straight or two pair. Even an OESD
> is not necessarily a great outcome and a single pair is gonna lose
> most of the time and forget about that gutshot. So you have to ask
> yourself if you are going to like the flop once every 7.5 times. I
> don't think so.
>
> The difference is that in deep stack play, you can call with this hand
> because you can see a turn card for a lower percentage of your stack
> (i.e. relatively cheaply), can possibly outplay your opponents and
> have implied odds. So now there are more flops you can play past into
> the turn, like that gutshot in some (good) cases. Plus, you have fold
> equity due to the deep stacks so you can pick spots to bluff or semi-
> bluff.
>
> In other words, as a short stack, your post flop actions are limited,
> you implied odds are very low and every BB you throw away is very
> expensive.

For 7.5:1 implied odds, I would've called the preflop raise, would've checked
and folded after the flop. Now you're in push mode, of course, and I wait for a
hand in the next orbit to go for it.

T

_______________________________________________________________
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 >> Stay informed about: Call or Fold? Help please 

On Mar 17 2008 12:22 PM, PantsOnFire wrote:

> On Mar 17, 1:20 pm, Tanya AKA MissT74 <43084....RemoveThis@recpoker.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I have to ask you what kind of flops you would like to see with that
> > > hand? And for each of those flops (that you don't check/fold) what
> > > are your actions? And I would put your fold equity close to zero so
> > > you will get called if you do move in.
> >
> > > And don't forget that if you go in and double up a couple of hands
> > > later, that extra 200 you donated this hand represents another 200
> > > that you didn't double up on or 400 less than someone who folded that
> > > in that BB.
> >
> > I'm hoping to see any kind of flop that hits my hand, a pair, trips, 2 pair,
> > open ended str8 draw, but NOT a gutshot. If it hits, I'm first to act, I
> > push
> > (Stop and Go??) and pray. Otherwise, if I don't hit the flop, I wait again.
> > Getting 7.5:1 for the preflop call just makes it obvious that it's a call,
> > imo,
> > if you're playing statistical poker.
> >
> > T
> Okay, that's a lot of flops that you would like. However, I don't
> think you mean that you would shove all those flops. What about the
> monotone flops (e.g. AhQh5h), xx5 or xx6 where xx is two over cards.
> And if you shove an OESD with your almost zero fold equity any pair
> higher than a 7 will make that move -EV or even money (especially if
> there is a flush draw or you are not drawing to the nut straight).
>
> Here is another factor to consider. When playing NL tournaments, and
> especially near the end game, we want to try to avoid making mistakes
> by avoiding tough decisions. Unless the flop is very good and shoving
> is an easy decision or the flop is very bad and folding is an easy
> decision, then all the other in between flops will be hard decisions.
> You want to avoid that.
>
> So basically, you are near the end of a NL tournament, in a pot with
> three opponents where the pot is the same size as your stack, you have
> two low non-suited connected cards and are out of position. And you
> voluntarily put in 12.5% of your stack for that honour. Does it sound
> as good now?

Depends on what your M is before the call/fold scenario, and what it is after.

Where did you come from, btw? Have I been gone that long?

T

> quoted text -



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