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Help with a 2-5 NLH Bellagio hand please

 
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goobla

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Since: Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 11



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:28 pm
Post subject: Help with a 2-5 NLH Bellagio hand please
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Hey Guys,

I played this hand at the bellagio 2-5 NLH game and thought i played it
pretty well - but would like some input from the other rgp'ers.

Game Setup -
Full table, mostly locals who are weak tight players. One novice who
plays pocket pairs/big cards to the river when he is heads up in a
hand. Can't bluff him off any hand he has decided to play. One
crazy French dude who loves to gamble directly to my right (I chose to
move to this seat after I saw his play). The person directly to my
left seemed like a solid player who plays based on situations instead
of cards that he has been dealt - he is also happy that he is to the
French guy's left.

A little more history on the French guy -
He gambles but always takes a good gamble, meaning he isn't drawing
slim too much. He is mostly chasing flush or straight draws. He takes
about 85% of flops at pretty much any price if there are at least 2
people in the pot. He opens the pot (always with a raise) with a huge
variety of hands and opens about 70% of the time he is first in the
pot.

Okay so here's the way the hand goes down.

FD (French Dude, playing about $275) is first in the pot (he is UTG+1)
and raises to $25. Now this is a large raise for this game and the
usual raise was between $15 and $20. A $15 bet was getting around 4-5
callers and a $20 bet was getting around 2 callers. While a $25 bet
was always getting no callers. I am dealt AdKd and start thinking how
much I want to raise. I then start thinking that if I just call I will
be able to play this pot against FD heads up anyway and I probably have
the best hand (with good show down value). My flat call also disguises
my hand somewhat. Confident that I have the best hand and that I can
either keep the pot small or big depending on the flop - I just call (I
am playing about $750).

Then the guy to my left (playing about $650) makes it $100 to go and
everyone folds to the FD who calls (no surprise).

Now I start to think -
1) Can I fold? Yes, the re-raiser could have a big hand here AA-QQ or
AK. JJ-TT is also a possibility. But after watching his play I felt
like he was taking advantage of the situation and was trying to buy
this pot. He knew no one else was calling, and probably felt like FD
was going to fold his weak holding and me following suit. I decided
that he was making a play and eliminated a fold as an option - and
getting 3:1 on my money helped me make that decision. Now should I
call or raise?

2) Can I call? My first instinct said no - that I should either
re-raise or fold. However a re-raise of 250-300 on top would result in
me playing a huge pot with the guy on my left and an automatic call
with FD's remaining $175). If I Call here I can see where I stand on
the flop.

3) Can I Raise? Of course - once I decided not to fold. However like
I said that would result in me playing for all of my chips against the
re-raiser, and my real goal was to try to eliminate him and play heads
up against FD

After evaluating I decided to Call and play the hand on the flop.

[First question - what type of hand do you put me on in this spot]

FLOP:

Flop comes T 3 2 rainbow.

The FD checks. I feel like this as an excellent flop for me and decide
to see where I stand against dude to my left. I Bet $150 into the $300
pot and the guy to my left folds immediately. At this point I am happy
with my read of the situation and the read I made of the play he was
trying to make. The other reason of my bet was because of the few
draws that could be out there and had a strong feeling that FD would
fold - unless he held a Ten.

[Second Question - What type of hand do you put me on now?]

Well - FD thinks for a while! Constantly saying that 'he wasn't
worried about the original re-raiser - he knew he had AK or AQ'. After
a while he decided to go all in - and I call the extra $25.

Now my question is about my reasoning. Is it sound? Can I have added
any extra thought processes into this? Was this hand played well or am
I a donkey? Remember this is a cash game not a tourney when replying.

I know I didn't put the conclusion of the hand - but in my mind it
is inconsequential.

Thanks!
-Goob

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DennisP

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Since: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 150



(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Help with a 2-5 NLH Bellagio hand please [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Sounds like you think AKs is stronger than it really is to me. I
would've RR preflop about 2/3 of the time. If I called I'd either fold
or push to the RR.

On the flop I'd RR you if I was the raiser abaout 2/3 of the time,
maybe more. Unless he was on a total bluff.

I'd put the guy on your right on a pocket pair, any pair here. I'd put
you on a PP or big ace or JTs, QTs.

I don't know how the hand turned out, but sounds like the guy on your
right played it the best.


goobla wrote:
> Hey Guys,
>
> I played this hand at the bellagio 2-5 NLH game and thought i played it
> pretty well - but would like some input from the other rgp'ers.
>
> Game Setup -
> Full table, mostly locals who are weak tight players. One novice who
> plays pocket pairs/big cards to the river when he is heads up in a
> hand. Can't bluff him off any hand he has decided to play. One
> crazy French dude who loves to gamble directly to my right (I chose to
> move to this seat after I saw his play). The person directly to my
> left seemed like a solid player who plays based on situations instead
> of cards that he has been dealt - he is also happy that he is to the
> French guy's left.
>
> A little more history on the French guy -
> He gambles but always takes a good gamble, meaning he isn't drawing
> slim too much. He is mostly chasing flush or straight draws. He takes
> about 85% of flops at pretty much any price if there are at least 2
> people in the pot. He opens the pot (always with a raise) with a huge
> variety of hands and opens about 70% of the time he is first in the
> pot.
>
> Okay so here's the way the hand goes down.
>
> FD (French Dude, playing about $275) is first in the pot (he is UTG+1)
> and raises to $25. Now this is a large raise for this game and the
> usual raise was between $15 and $20. A $15 bet was getting around 4-5
> callers and a $20 bet was getting around 2 callers. While a $25 bet
> was always getting no callers. I am dealt AdKd and start thinking how
> much I want to raise. I then start thinking that if I just call I will
> be able to play this pot against FD heads up anyway and I probably have
> the best hand (with good show down value). My flat call also disguises
> my hand somewhat. Confident that I have the best hand and that I can
> either keep the pot small or big depending on the flop - I just call (I
> am playing about $750).
>
> Then the guy to my left (playing about $650) makes it $100 to go and
> everyone folds to the FD who calls (no surprise).
>
> Now I start to think -
> 1) Can I fold? Yes, the re-raiser could have a big hand here AA-QQ or
> AK. JJ-TT is also a possibility. But after watching his play I felt
> like he was taking advantage of the situation and was trying to buy
> this pot. He knew no one else was calling, and probably felt like FD
> was going to fold his weak holding and me following suit. I decided
> that he was making a play and eliminated a fold as an option - and
> getting 3:1 on my money helped me make that decision. Now should I
> call or raise?
>
> 2) Can I call? My first instinct said no - that I should either
> re-raise or fold. However a re-raise of 250-300 on top would result in
> me playing a huge pot with the guy on my left and an automatic call
> with FD's remaining $175). If I Call here I can see where I stand on
> the flop.
>
> 3) Can I Raise? Of course - once I decided not to fold. However like
> I said that would result in me playing for all of my chips against the
> re-raiser, and my real goal was to try to eliminate him and play heads
> up against FD
>
> After evaluating I decided to Call and play the hand on the flop.
>
> [First question - what type of hand do you put me on in this spot]
>
> FLOP:
>
> Flop comes T 3 2 rainbow.
>
> The FD checks. I feel like this as an excellent flop for me and decide
> to see where I stand against dude to my left. I Bet $150 into the $300
> pot and the guy to my left folds immediately. At this point I am happy
> with my read of the situation and the read I made of the play he was
> trying to make. The other reason of my bet was because of the few
> draws that could be out there and had a strong feeling that FD would
> fold - unless he held a Ten.
>
> [Second Question - What type of hand do you put me on now?]
>
> Well - FD thinks for a while! Constantly saying that 'he wasn't
> worried about the original re-raiser - he knew he had AK or AQ'. After
> a while he decided to go all in - and I call the extra $25.
>
> Now my question is about my reasoning. Is it sound? Can I have added
> any extra thought processes into this? Was this hand played well or am
> I a donkey? Remember this is a cash game not a tourney when replying.
>
> I know I didn't put the conclusion of the hand - but in my mind it
> is inconsequential.
>
> Thanks!
> -Goob

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DennisP

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Since: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 150



(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Help with a 2-5 NLH Bellagio hand please [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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John Forsberg wrote:
> On Aug 25 2006 2:42 AM, DennisP wrote:
>
> > Sounds like you think AKs is stronger than it really is to me. I
> > would've RR preflop about 2/3 of the time.
>
> Eh, what use do you think calling 1/3 of the time has?
>
> I really can't see the point of mixing at AK here and the RR 2/3 of the time
> just seems completely arbitrary. Why not RR 1/3-4/5 of the time instead? Why is
> 2/3 the best mixing proportion?
>
> Personally I can't see calling with AK ever being right if you have the opener
> on a very wide range hands. In fact, I have a hard time seeing calling as a good
> option here with any hand at all due to your crappy position relative the rest
> of the table.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com

You're probably right. I suck at examing hands compared to playing
them. The more I think about it I'm probably folding or jamming here.
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John Forsberg

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Posts: 101



(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:21 am
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Here's my advice:

Re-pop the first thing you do. And the reason for that is that 1) you totally
crush his opening range but your hand is vulnerable and mostly very hard to play
post-flop. Just calling here is akin to just call in the small blind when the bb
is a short stack. It's just not a good idea with AK.

You reasoning seems quite shaky. If you want to isolate against Frenchy, why do
you guarantee yourself a 3-way pot that 67% of the time will result in you not
pairing on the flop with $300 in the pot and $550 left to play. Also Frency
might jam on the flop, in which case you'll only be able to call with pairs for
fear of the guy behind you. So you may well have to give up quite a few winners
due to the extremely awkward flop situation you set yourself up to.

Also, assuming that the guy behind you have somthing like JJ. How often do you
think you'll be able to get payed off if you pair? My guess is basically never.
And if you jam all-in pre you're going to represent AA/KK very well and give a
reading player an opportunity to fold the best hand (somthing like 99-QQ for
instance).

Anyhow, calling doesn't seem right at all unless you give the re-raiser credit
for something pretty good. Otherwise you're just giving him a free shot at
taking the pot from you.

Anyhow I re-raise the first time and call a re-raise all-in against Situational
Dude. If I verbally misclick or something the first time it's my turn I jam
against a non-strong re-raise.

Anyhow, you seem to put way too much emphasis on trickyness. A guy raises with a
very weak range and you have a pretty strong hand. Your first reaction in this
case should simply be to re-raise to snap his semi-bluff equity off and get rid
of pairs behind you. Same reaonsning goes for calling the re-raise.

Here's how you should order your actions in no-limit: fold, raise and call a
distant third. You really need a strong reason to call a big raise in NL.
Out-tricking a bright player with position on you is not a strong reason. Nor is
letting a guy who might well hold J8s or something take a flop against you, you
have good equity against his range, but you nowhere near dominate it.


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John Forsberg

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(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:28 am
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Oh, your ability to keep the pot small went out the window when Frenchy opened
for 5bb. Even if you call and it's only the two of you taking the flop the
playable stack will be only about 4.5 times the pot. That means there's only
room for a bet and a raise, or bet + call + bet. So a small pot just isn't an
option. The possible betting room after your first action is: all-in pre, 1 bet
post flop, or 2 bets post flop.


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John Forsberg

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(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:33 am
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On Aug 25 2006 2:42 AM, DennisP wrote:

> Sounds like you think AKs is stronger than it really is to me. I
> would've RR preflop about 2/3 of the time.

Eh, what use do you think calling 1/3 of the time has?

I really can't see the point of mixing at AK here and the RR 2/3 of the time
just seems completely arbitrary. Why not RR 1/3-4/5 of the time instead? Why is
2/3 the best mixing proportion?

Personally I can't see calling with AK ever being right if you have the opener
on a very wide range hands. In fact, I have a hard time seeing calling as a good
option here with any hand at all due to your crappy position relative the rest
of the table.




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Bronzedodger

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Since: Jan 12, 2007
Posts: 643



(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:33 am
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On Aug 24 2006 10:33 PM, John Forsberg wrote:

> On Aug 25 2006 2:42 AM, DennisP wrote:
>
>
> Personally I can't see calling with AK ever being right if you have the
opener
> on a very wide range hands. In fact, I have a hard time seeing calling as a
good
> option here with any hand at all due to your crappy position relative the
rest
> of the table.

Afraid this doesn't make sense to me. If you put him on a narrow range
(AA-JJ) then calling looks like a bad idea. But putting him on a maniac's
wide range makes it an easy call. I wouldn't raise and re-open it to the
guy to my left - see the flop. Your bet worked out, getting you heads up
with the loose player - now you just grab the prayer beads.

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John Forsberg

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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:11 am
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Finally, a point about position relative someone who raises very liberally
pre-flop. Sitting to his left isn't necessarily the best, or even a good,
option. The reason for that is that you're going to be tempted to play fairly
loose against his openings and run into someone behind you either taking a stab
at the pot or just having a good hand. So fairly frequently when you either call
or raise him you're going to be picked off by someone behind you. Depending on
the players at the table this may or may not be a big factor.

However, there is a very good reason for sitting to Frenchy's right. That reason
is that by doing so you get relative position on the table every time Frency
comes in for a raise. You get to see how every players behind him reacts to his
raise and will be able to put them on a much smaller range of hands than if
you're the first to react to Frenchy.

Compare the two following scenarios depending on whether you sit on Frenchy's
left or right when he raises.

A lot of people decides to call Frenchy with speculative hands.

If you re-raise to his left you'll likely get heads-up with Frenchy which
certainly is ok.

If you just call you'll sit in a pretty bad spot on the flop since you have an
unpredictable player to you left and one or more players behind with position.

If you sit to his right and just limp in with every hand you'll play you'll now
be able to put Frenchy on a wide range and the rest of the players on
non-raising hands (against Frenchy no less). This means you've got a golden
stealing opportunity. Or at least an opportunity to gamble with Frenchy while
having a big overlay.

If you choose to re-raise here you're able to get in a *lot* more money pre. As
well as getting a lot of dead money in the pot generated by speculative hands
first calling then folding as opposed to them just folding straight away.

If you just call that's cool too since you'll still be able to see how the field
reacts to Frenchy before deciding what to do with your hand.

If someone has a strong hand behind Frenchy you're clearly much better of to his
right than to his left. If you're on his left and try to isolate you're going to
put in a lot more money than you would have if you just limped in for 1bb before
Frenchy and then got a read on the player putting in the raise.

The basic premise behind sitting to Frenchy's right is to exploit players trying
to exploit Frenchy. Which people usually do by calling with a wide, but
not-so-strong range of hands. That's a big mistake in that it allows you to get
a pretty good idea of what they're holding, while they will have no clue of what
you're up to before you're able to slam in a really big raise against their
well-defined, moderate holdings.

A final point in favor of sitting to Frenchy's right is that it allows you to
minimize the penalty of playing in early position. Since you'll be able to make
big raises pre-flop when in early position and Frenchy raises you, you can
basically reduce the betting to 2 or 3 street game greatly reducing the value of
having position on you. This will of course require you to gamb00l like crazy
and occasionally get your money in as an underdog.


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David Nicoson

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Since: Jan 16, 2007
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:13 am
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goobla wrote:
> Flop comes T 3 2 rainbow.
>
> The FD checks. I feel like this as an excellent flop for me and decide
> to see where I stand against dude to my left.

It's a better flop for the FD's medium pair. I'm not sure why you're
pleased to flop no pair/no draw. I guess it's better than 89T suited
(and not of your suit, obviously). It seems to me your equity in the
pot is much worse than it was preflop.
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goobla

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(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:03 am
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David Nicoson wrote:
> goobla wrote:
> > Flop comes T 3 2 rainbow.
> >
> > The FD checks. I feel like this as an excellent flop for me and decide
> > to see where I stand against dude to my left.
>
> It's a better flop for the FD's medium pair. I'm not sure why you're
> pleased to flop no pair/no draw. I guess it's better than 89T suited
> (and not of your suit, obviously). It seems to me your equity in the
> pot is much worse than it was preflop.


I feel like it is a good flop for me not because it helps me but
because it most unlikely helped FD. and Definitly didn't help SD. If
SD has me beat, i can find out for 1/2 the pot. By having few flush or
straight draws FD can't call me without a pair or big cards - either of
which i don't mind too much (ofcourse the big cards is better)
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goobla

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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:10 am
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John Forsberg wrote:
> Here's my advice:
>
> Re-pop the first thing you do. And the reason for that is that 1) you totally
> crush his opening range but your hand is vulnerable and mostly very hard to play
> post-flop. Just calling here is akin to just call in the small blind when the bb
> is a short stack. It's just not a good idea with AK.

Hey John,

Okay, i just called a raise from FD and am now faced with a re-raise
from SD. If i re-pop here what range of hands do you put me on?
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goobla

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(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:07 am
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> Why do you think his estimate of your hand range matters a lot?

It matters because if i jam pre-flop - i wan't to win right there
without seeing a flop. And I wasn't sure what SD would put me on. no?
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John Forsberg

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(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:47 am
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On Aug 25 2006 7:40 AM, Bronzedodger wrote:


> Afraid this doesn't make sense to me.

Ok. What spot are you talking about, calling the laggy open-raise or the
re-raise from Situational Dude?

In case of the first raise I think it's undebatable. You're about 2:1 favorite
against his range *and* can get hands out you don't want in the hand from the
weak-tight brigade *and* get value from Frenchy's calls.

In the second case he puts Situational Dude on a wide range of hands and Frenchy
on something not so great. Again, calling is a bad idea since you don't have any
implied odds and have a guy with a fair amount of betting leverage with position
on you. Plus you probably have equity against his range of hands.

At this point there's $300 in the pot with your call, so the only viable raise
with $550 behind to bet is shoving all-in. Re-opening the beting here isn't an
issue at all. In fact, shoving guarantees you'll avoid nasty flop situations
like the one that actually hapened.

Jamming is simply taking your rightful equity, eliminating being squeezed by the
small stack or being punished by SD. As well as the fact that you easily could
be pre-flop favorite hear.

So no, I don't calling as a very good ever in the first spot and very, very
seldomly as a good idea once the re-raise comes in. If you put the guy on a
tight range of hands you're probably better off folding than calling. And if you
do not (as our hero in fact did) pushing is definitely better since it can get
you HU with frenchy with $100 in dead money in the pot as well as providing
protection for your equity.


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Bronzedodger

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(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:47 am
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On Aug 25 2006 5:47 AM, John Forsberg wrote:

> On Aug 25 2006 7:40 AM, Bronzedodger wrote:
>
>
> > Afraid this doesn't make sense to me.
>
> Ok. What spot are you talking about, calling the laggy open-raise or the
> re-raise from Situational Dude?

I was confused by the idea that if the guy is on a wide range, you have to
fold - which is the reverse of what I would think.

I'm not disagreeing with the push, but I think I'd still call. I haven't
seen many hands that are "undebateable" - which is good, or RGP might get
a bit dry. Wink

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goobla

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(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:47 am
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> So no, I don't calling as a very good ever in the first spot and very, very
> seldomly as a good idea once the re-raise comes in. If you put the guy on a
> tight range of hands you're probably better off folding than calling. And if you
> do not (as our hero in fact did) pushing is definitely better since it can get
> you HU with frenchy with $100 in dead money in the pot as well as providing
> protection for your equity.


Yes i agree with you in most cases. However in this situation i felt
like the ONLY bet preflop was an all-in while a flop bet could be only
1/2 the pot. In the event that the guy to my left actually had a big
hand i could be saving money by throwing away my hand on a flop
re-raise. coupled with the fact that when i called pre-flop - i was
90% sure that FD was going to check it - no matter what came out - and
i was going to bet 1/2 the pot no matter what came out.
 >> Stay informed about: Help with a 2-5 NLH Bellagio hand please 
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