Who wants to bet this turn?

On Jul 21 2008 1:11 PM, K9way wrote:

> On Jul 21 2008 1:26 PM, Howard Beale wrote:
>
> > On Jul 21 2008 12:15 PM, John_Brian_K wrote:
> >
> > > > CAZ 20-40 game, full of the usual suspects and playing mostly
> > > > loose-passive.
> > > >
> > > > UTG limps, I call Q-J clubs, few callers and BB decides to raise, all
> call.
> > > >
> > > > Flop: KhQd4c. BB checks (somewhat surprising. He's either taking a
> real
> > > > chance of it getting checked thru w/ AA or KK or has something like 99
> and
> > > > is done w/ the hand), UTG checks, I bet what might be the best hand,
and
> > > > get only 2 callers in MP.
> > >
> > > Loose passive does not IMO equate to someone checking TP here so I am
> > > guessing you are good here. You bet and get 2 callers, but which 2?
> >
> > I was UTG+1, sorry for leaving that out.
> >
> > I bet for the reason you mentioned. The 2 callers are just some
> > run-of-the-mill players in MP, I thought that was clear.
>
> iF YOU WERE UNDER THE GUN +1 DOES THAT NOT PUT YOU IN MP?
>
> IF NOT THEN THEY WERE BEHIND YOU?
>
> And if so .. it wasnt clear !!


I realize that the OP was not clear enough. Anyway, UTG+1 is EP so, yes,
the callers were behind me. Thanks for your contribution above. I feel
the same way most times about 'betting for info' because most players
don't know what to do w/ the info and they should have a feel for what's
going on w/o the bet. At least in limit.


HB

_______________________________________________________________________ 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
 >> Stay informed about: Who wants to bet this turn? 

> Are you betting to throw it away if you get raised ? if you get raised ..
> are you going to call and draw to the str8?

I have middle pair, decent kicker w/ 2 backdoor draws against a field of
limpers (once BB checks). If I get raised I call but I think there's a
very good chance that my hand is best now and I don't want it to get
checked thru. Remember, I'm not up against geniuses.
>
> Are you betting it for the best hand?
>
> Before I would ask if one should bet this hand.. I would decide why I was
> betting , if you choose to do so !!
>
> If it gets checked to you on the turn there arent many hands you can beat,
> but you are going to get called by anyone with J in their hand , and you
> have them in serious trouble!

I was first to act but you're right, I have anyone w/ a bare J drawing
only to the chop.
>
> Anyone can make a case for checking or betting here.

I'm trying to get a sense of the forum. I have in mind a percentage who
want to raise v. just call and I'm going to see how close I come.
>
> Poker questions like this are kinda pointless, cuz the questioner can
> never portray his 'feelings or 'vibes" about the hand

That's always the problem w/ a live hand.
>
> Black and white "cookie cutter" questions are pointless without input on
> ones intuitive level
>
> Right Marc?
>
> So where Did Ernie end up?
>
> What poker room is he infesting?
>
> Did they make him a host at the Fort?

I don't know. Last I heard he was barred from Gila also but I'm not sure
if it's accurate.

When are you going to let me know who you are? I'm guessing that I'm
going to get a pretty good laugh out of it and give you a ton of grief for
being such an ass on here and stringing me along. I doubt that I don't
like you if I know you which apparently I do. So:

howardbeal1.....at.....yahoo.com, shnook.


HB

____________________________________________________________________ 
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
 >> Stay informed about: Who wants to bet this turn? 

On Jul 21 2008 8:40 PM, ruylopez wrote:

> On Jul 21 2008 1:51 PM, Howard Beale wrote:
>
> > CAZ 20-40 game, full of the usual suspects and playing mostly
> > loose-passive.
> >
> > UTG limps, I call Q-J clubs, few callers and BB decides to raise, all call.
> >
> > Flop: KhQd4c. BB checks (somewhat surprising. He's either taking a real
> > chance of it getting checked thru w/ AA or KK or has something like 99 and
> > is done w/ the hand), UTG checks, I bet what might be the best hand, and
> > get only 2 callers in MP.
> >
>
> I have to say I really don't like this bet. According to your synopsis
> there are about six players in this hand and I don't figure to ship it
> with second pair J kicker. This isn't the flop I'm looking for against
> this many opponents. I check and maybe call one bet if there are still a
> lot along for the ride. I'm not trying to take the lead, I don't expect
> to run through six players.
>
> > Turn: 10s. Check or bet?
> >
>
> Given that, you've faded it down to two, and you have some chance of
> picking up the pot with a bet here. Lots of garbage will call you on the
> cheap street but might not be so willing now. You are representing an
> unlimited hand and picked up a draw to boot. Checking is bad here IMO and
> inconsistent.


Nice reply. Same for Fell. Between you you've laid out both sides of the
proposition well. My flop bet could be called a 'feel' bet since I could
see the players. I couldn't do it online. It's the turn that's more
interesting to me. Nice discussion so far, even from doggy.


HB

_____________________________________________________________________ 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
 >> Stay informed about: Who wants to bet this turn? 

On Jul 21 2008 4:32 PM, FellKnight wrote:

> On Jul 21 2008 3:05 PM, K9way wrote:
>
> > On Jul 21 2008 12:51 PM, Howard Beale wrote:
> >
> > > CAZ 20-40 game, full of the usual suspects and playing mostly
> > > loose-passive.
> > >
> > > UTG limps, I call Q-J clubs, few callers and BB decides to raise, all
call.
> > >
> > > Flop: KhQd4c. BB checks (somewhat surprising. He's either taking a
real
> > > chance of it getting checked thru w/ AA or KK or has something like 99
and
> > > is done w/ the hand), UTG checks, I bet what might be the best hand, and
> > > get only 2 callers in MP.
> > >
> > > Turn: 10s. Check or bet?
> >
> > Are you betting to throw it away if you get raised ? if you get raised ..
> > are you going to call and draw to the str8?
> >
> > Are you betting it for the best hand?
> >
> > Before I would ask if one should bet this hand.. I would decide why I was
> > betting , if you choose to do so !!
>
> Why do you need to do that?

you honestly dont know why one should decide why they are betting , and to
what end ?

This is what I mean about you "book learner, TVScooters" not knowing how
to play poker

I guess any conversation regarding the intuitive aspects of poker are just
completely beyond you
>
> In LHE, it is enough to have several different bits of equity, and as long
> as the sum, against a range of hands, is profitable, it is at least +EV to
> bet (it may be better to raise).
>
> If you bet here (which I like, given the line thus far), you are hoping to
> make a J call you, to make a hand like AT or AQ fold, to possibly make a
> hand like K-rag fold, and to keep a weak but better hand like AK from
> raising.
>
> > If it gets checked to you on the turn there arent many hands you can beat,
> > but you are going to get called by anyone with J in their hand , and you
> > have them in serious trouble!
> >
> > Anyone can make a case for checking or betting here.
>
> Indeed. Either can be correct here.
>
> Fell

--- 
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
 >> Stay informed about: Who wants to bet this turn? 

"Howard Beale" Usenet Poster
a1695 DeleteThis @webnntp.invalid Post #20 of 21 (3 views) Copy Shortcut Jul 22,
2008, 2:14 AM
Re: Who wants to bet this turn? Reply

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------

On Jul 21 2008 8:40 PM, ruylopez wrote:

> On Jul 21 2008 1:51 PM, Howard Beale wrote:
>
> > CAZ 20-40 game, full of the usual suspects and playing mostly
> > loose-passive.
> >
> > UTG limps, I call Q-J clubs, few callers and BB decides to raise,
all call.
> >
> > Flop: KhQd4c. BB checks (somewhat surprising. He's either taking a
real
> > chance of it getting checked thru w/ AA or KK or has something like
99 and
> > is done w/ the hand), UTG checks, I bet what might be the best
hand, and
> > get only 2 callers in MP.
> >
>
> I have to say I really don't like this bet. According to your
synopsis
> there are about six players in this hand and I don't figure to ship
it
> with second pair J kicker. This isn't the flop I'm looking for
against
> this many opponents. I check and maybe call one bet if there are
still a
> lot along for the ride. I'm not trying to take the lead, I don't
expect
> to run through six players.
>
> > Turn: 10s. Check or bet?
> >
>
> Given that, you've faded it down to two, and you have some chance of
> picking up the pot with a bet here. Lots of garbage will call you on
the
> cheap street but might not be so willing now. You are representing an

> unlimited hand and picked up a draw to boot. Checking is bad here IMO
and
> inconsistent.


Nice reply. Same for Fell. Between you you've laid out both sides of
the
proposition well.
........................................................................
...........

Beale, asshole, they repeated the same thing that I said. Plus, as I
did, before they did, disagreed that it was optional to bet or check.
Like I said, betting is far and away the only way to play it.

Also, I noticed your snide agreement with Doggstlye about "betting for
info". Believe me, I know what to do with "information" as would be
obvious from my poker contributions. Also, like the clueless
Doggystyle, you ignored the other reasons I gave for betting besides
information. Reasons that the other two (that you chose to praise) gave
that are exactly what I said before they said it.

What has been resolved is that, you, Doggystyle and The Moron Beaten by
Jacks aren't on a very high level of understanding of limit poker.

I'm glad I cleared this up. Now you can go fuck yourself with your "man
bag".




My flop bet could be called a 'feel' bet since I could
see the players. I couldn't do it online. It's the turn that's more
interesting to me. Nice discussion so far, even from doggy.

_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://www.pokermagazine.com
Visit www.pokermagazine.com
 >> Stay informed about: Who wants to bet this turn? 

On Jul 22 2008 4:35 AM, K9way wrote:

> On Jul 21 2008 4:32 PM, FellKnight wrote:
>
> > On Jul 21 2008 3:05 PM, K9way wrote:
> >
> > > On Jul 21 2008 12:51 PM, Howard Beale wrote:
> > >
> > > > CAZ 20-40 game, full of the usual suspects and playing mostly
> > > > loose-passive.
> > > >
> > > > UTG limps, I call Q-J clubs, few callers and BB decides to raise, all
> call.
> > > >
> > > > Flop: KhQd4c. BB checks (somewhat surprising. He's either taking a
> real
> > > > chance of it getting checked thru w/ AA or KK or has something like 99
> and
> > > > is done w/ the hand), UTG checks, I bet what might be the best hand,
and
> > > > get only 2 callers in MP.
> > > >
> > > > Turn: 10s. Check or bet?
> > >
> > > Are you betting to throw it away if you get raised ? if you get raised ..
> > > are you going to call and draw to the str8?
> > >
> > > Are you betting it for the best hand?
> > >
> > > Before I would ask if one should bet this hand.. I would decide why I was
> > > betting , if you choose to do so !!
> >
> > Why do you need to do that?
>
> you honestly dont know why one should decide why they are betting , and to
> what end ?
>
> This is what I mean about you "book learner, TVScooters" not knowing how
> to play poker
>
> I guess any conversation regarding the intuitive aspects of poker are just
> completely beyond you

I guess so. I'll just keep bumbling around hoping that I randomly press
the right buttons on my computer screen.

Fell
--
"One should always play fairly - when one has the winning cards."
Oscar Wilde

--- 
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
 >> Stay informed about: Who wants to bet this turn? 

> Beale, asshole, they repeated the same thing that I said. Plus, as I
> did, before they did, disagreed that it was optional to bet or check.
> Like I said, betting is far and away the only way to play it.


Sorry about that. Your reply was a good one and I forgot about it.

>
> Also, I noticed your snide agreement with Doggstlye about "betting for
> info". Believe me, I know what to do with "information" as would be
> obvious from my poker contributions.

YOU may know what to do w/ the info but many others certainly don't and in
the games I play in I see players constantly make 'information' bets and
raises and then call down, say they 'knew' their opponent had such and
such because of their raise and blah, blah, blah. And, very honestly, I
don't think that a player should need to raise 'for info', he should
already know pretty much where he is having determined the playing styles
of his opponents and if he bets/raises it should be for value or a
strategic reason almost always, not 'for info'. I think it's a terrible
waste of money. Those bets add up to a serious sum if 'betting for info'
is a regular part of your play and if you're the one (I don't want to
bother looking back) who said something along the lines of 'If you're
worried about $40 in limit games you shouldn't be playing the game),
that's just plain wrong. W/E, if you want to do it it's up to you but I
wish you wouldn't be so defensive.

So, I happen to agree w/ doggy in this case and I wasn't being snide.





Also, like the clueless
> Doggystyle, you ignored the other reasons I gave for betting besides
> information. Reasons that the other two (that you chose to praise) gave
> that are exactly what I said before they said it.


>
> What has been resolved is that, you, Doggystyle and The Moron Beaten by
> Jacks aren't on a very high level of understanding of limit poker.


Yikes!!!


>
> I'm glad I cleared this up. Now you can go fuck yourself with your "man
> bag".


This part I can't abide. It's an ultra-cool and hip MESSENGER BAG and it
makes me 'with it' and 'Cosmopolitan' and it's very handy besides.


HB

----- 
* kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com
 >> Stay informed about: Who wants to bet this turn? 

On Jul 22, 5:51 am, "Howard Beale" <a1... DeleteThis @webnntp.invalid> wrote:
> CAZ 20-40 game, full of the usual suspects and playing mostly
> loose-passive.
>
> UTG limps, I call Q-J clubs, few callers and BB decides to raise, all call.

You should probably reraise here for value; QJs loves
a big multiway pot and nobody folds for 2 bets once
they've already put in one bet.

>
> Flop: KhQd4c. BB checks (somewhat surprising. He's either taking a real
> chance of it getting checked thru w/ AA or KK or has something like 99 and
> is done w/ the hand),

What do you put BB on, given what you know of him?
I don't see a good player raising 99 or offsuit hands
there. Those hands hate a big multiway pot,
especially pot of position. Betting is mandatory with
AA QQ or Kx. My guess would be that he's on a
similar hand to you and is hoping for a free card.


> UTG checks, I bet what might be the best hand,

Good - checking is horrible here , the pot is large
and you can't give a free card to stuff like Ax,
4x, JT, JJ, T9, other pairs, etc.

> and get only 2 callers in MP.
>
> Turn: 10s. Check or bet?

Those players could have anything
at all, you are most likely ahead and
you have to bet. If you get raised
here then you can muck
if the raiser is a predictable, passive
player; or call down if it's heads up
with an aggressive player.

Checking is bad because if you
check and a player behind you bets,
you don't know if they are betting
for value or if they are taking a stab
at you because you are obviously weak
-- you will have to call such a bet
because the pot is large, so
you might as well bet it yourself.
 >> Stay informed about: Who wants to bet this turn? 

I'm not overly defensive. You attacked my posts at one level of subtly
or another. Considering the fact that that my replies were in good
faith, I took exception. Doggystyle's attack was ridiculous; he didn't
even understand the hand set-up.


Okay, starting with your statemen that one should already know their
opponents "style" and there's no need for betting for information. What
you don't seem to understand is that betting patterns are what tells
you about your opponents' "style" on that particular hand and with the
particular hand they're holding at that particular time.

Plus, you're full of false dichotomy. You can know your opponent's
"style" as you put it, AND bet for information. Your example of those
who -bet for information and then call it down- is meaningless; if
they're not playing properly, what's your point? The problem isn't the
concept, it's the bad execution. If someone raises into a flush board
with 2,2, it dosen't mean there's something wrong with the concept of
raising, it means that they don't know what they're doing.

How you can be so clueless with regard to the concept of betting for
information is hard to believe.

Also, once again, you left out the OTHER reasons one bets other than
for information. If you bet for information, that doesn't mean that you
can't also be betting for other reasons; to take control of the hand:
your opponents are reacting to you, you're not reacting to your
opponents. If you're not in control, you're being controlled.

If you can get one of the two players who are just -calling/showing
weakness (no K)- to fold on a bet, your chances are better. You can't
give away a free card under the circumstances, and what you hold.

In addition, tight/aggressive strategy requires aggressive betting.
With the example you provided, it's time to be aggressive.

There's more, but that's enough for now.

As far as the $40 a BB comment goes: play your cards, not your money.

_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://www.pokermagazine.com
Visit www.pokermagazine.com
 >> Stay informed about: Who wants to bet this turn? 

Ok, thanks for the detailed reply, but I simply don't like betting solely
for information. You've now tied it in with other considerations

quoting:If you bet for information, that doesn't mean that you
can't also be betting for other reasons; to take control of the hand:
your opponents are reacting to you, you're not reacting to your
opponents. If you're not in control, you're being controlled.
/quote.

which make it a different proposition altogether.


Aside: If you won't accept 'overly defensive' how about 'touchy' or
'prickly'? Seriously, I'm very easy going, looking to discuss and not
upset anyone or pick fights. I appreciate your input and I hope that you
continue to contribute when I post my next strat question.


HB

______________________________________________________________________ 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
 >> Stay informed about: Who wants to bet this turn? 

On Jul 22, 11:52 am, Old Wolf <oldw... RemoveThis @inspire.net.nz> wrote:
>
> You should probably reraise here for value; QJs loves
> a big multiway pot and nobody folds for 2 bets once
> they've already put in one bet.

He was UTG + 1, so raising here forces players behind him to call 2
cold. I'd limp.

I'd bet the turn. After betting the flop, I think you have to. You
took the lead on the flop, and no one pushed back. Your hand may or
may not be good, and you picked up a draw on the turn. Against one or
two opponents, you have to suck it up and bet. Against 3 opponents,
I'd check.

On the flop, you must realize that a bet is going to get callers - the
pot is inflated, you have 4 or 5 opponents, and the board is
coordinated with a couple of touching face cards. If you are going to
choose to bet here (and I'm not sure I would, personally), I think you
are committing yourself to betting the turn, provided you only get one
or two callers on the flop and you aren't raised. If you are going to
dog it on the turn in this spot, you should have checked the flop - I
mean, you knew when you bet you were going to be facing a turn
decision. This hand is an example of why betting marginal hands out of
position sucks. You put yourself in tough spots.
 >> Stay informed about: Who wants to bet this turn? 

On Jul 22, 6:32 pm, JG <Hecka... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 22, 11:52 am, Old Wolf <oldw... DeleteThis @inspire.net.nz> wrote:
>
> > You should probably reraise here for value; QJs loves
> > a big multiway pot and nobody folds for 2 bets once
> > they've already put in one bet.
>
> He was UTG + 1, so raising here forces players behind him to call 2
> cold. I'd limp.

Maybe I didn't understand what you said. I'm not sure what you're
advocating -- re-raising the BB, or raising the UTG limp? In any case,
I would just limp or call, since you're out of position against a big
field. And some might fold for the two bets, especially since the
betting action isn't closed out.

JG
 >> Stay informed about: Who wants to bet this turn? 

But, I clearly tied "betting for information" in with "other reasons"
in my original posts. The fact that you could not have missed that,
lead me to believe that you missed it deliberately to make an unfounded
criticism. That made me appropriately defensive.

I'm not like The Popinjayster or Bea Foroni, I take my poker replies
seriously.

_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://www.pokermagazine.com
Visit www.pokermagazine.com
 >> Stay informed about: Who wants to bet this turn?