Thinking of taking the plunge into Professional Poker

The old cliche of "it's a hard way to make a easy living" rings true when
grinding it for a living.

There are a few things to keep in mind.

This is one of the few jobs where many times it lwil cost you money for the
privilege of being at the job.

There are all of kind of personalities at the table, from executives, retirees,
doctors, crooks, dealers, working class guys, college kids, grinders, etc They
all have "their" reasons to be playing and sometimes the negative energy at a
table wears down you psyche. The key is to have the ability to leave that energy
at the table away from your personal life.

Underestimating bankroll requirements in a particular limit can increase stress
levels triggering other risky behaviours; gambling without an edge, alcohol &
drug abuse, sexual additions, etc.

Poker is a zero-sum game that can mess with ones moral compass. Based on your
moral upbringing, playing poker for a living can create serious internal
conflicts that can manifest in other parts of your life away from the table.

Playing close to a "optimal' strategy, it's difficult to maintain over a long
period of time. In reality, after thousands of hours, it can be intellectually
numbing. Boredom creeps in and the "fun" part of the game diminishes.

It is difficult to maintain normal social relationships when doing this for a
living. The hours can be chaotic and play havoc with your social commitments.
One can always find a reason why one can't leave the table to meet a friend, get
home to a significant other, spend time with a child, etc. The temptation is
always there to place family and friends into a second tier position in ones
live.

The one bet for 100 hands 'standard' in a live game setting at this level
translates to roughly 12-15 an hr. Dealers and table circumstances can move the
game anywhere from 30-45 hands per hour. With rake around $120 to 200 per hour;
you are 'real' earning rate is closer to break even at 1 BB/ hour The truth is
that at this level of play, one needs to do 2 BB or better. With the level of
live play currently out there, if you cannot do better than that, you are at
best a break even player. I am sure this paragraph will bring a lot of
controversy within RGP but that's my experience and data in moving up levels.
Here is the one area, where online play has a significant advantage over live
play. Multi tabling at this low middle levels can bring a decent hourly earn
rate.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth and for some reason or another decided to
share it with you and RGP. I played as my sole source of income for 3 plus years
but decided to go back to work last  year. I am in my early forties and I am
fortunate enough to have an education and work experience that I could return to
the workplace and make a similar earn rate that I was used to at the poker table
with a lot more of an intellectual challenge. I still play the game seriously
and my "career" moved up from 2/4 limit 7 years ago to 50/100 mixed games when I
get to L.V, A.C, or at the many other casinos in the tournament circuit.

The tone of my advice might not be an upbeat but to play this game successfully,
you need to evaluate your game harshly. If you see it through rosy colored
glasses, it can be a very painful experience. Good luck with your decision.








On Feb 8 2008 6:58 PM, Preston wrote:

> I've played poker as a hobby a lot. I keep records and I do win about
> the usual big bet an hour. Right now I have a cush job in Dallas that
> has allowed me to save up quite a bit of money, but my six year old
> daughter is in LA and I need to be closer to her. I've started looking
> for a job out there, but I find myself questioning why I would work
> harder and more hours for less money than the $30 an hour I feel I
> should be able to get at $15-30 at one of the LA casinos.
>
> Now my experience at $15-30 is pretty limited- about 11 hours or so.
> But out of those $20 hours I've won $1800 in some of the loosest and
> most bizarre games I've seen. I know that this is not even close to a
> long term average, but it does reinforce in my mind that the game is
> plenty soft if I chose to make my living that way.
>
> But the other people in my life actively discourage me and I guess I
> don't have the courage to really do it. I feel I need to have a day
> job to go to just so I can say I do something, else I will be labeled
> as a loser.
>
> I guess I'm torn and looking for advice.
>
> Sincerely,
> Preston



_______________________________________________________________
Block Lists, Favorites, and more - http://www.recpoker.com
 >> Stay informed about: Thinking of taking the plunge into Professional Poker 

My neighbor considered playing golf for a living (Senior Tour) and asked
what I thought.

"Go play four rounds, four days in a row. (Like the tour). Don't cheat. Do
it again next week and the week after. You're score will tell you."

Playing poker is different because of the levels. So count your money; play
five days in a row; and count your money. Then do what other professional
do: move up to the next table or down to a cheaper one.

Moving up you'll have better players and you won't do as well. Move down and
you won't make as much. Judge your future. "Will I keep moving up until I
can't make it?" Will I move down and recoup?" "Will I always play scared
money?"

You really need to try it awhile. Don't cheat (yourself).


Jerry 'n Vegas
 >> Stay informed about: Thinking of taking the plunge into Professional Poker 

On Feb 9, 3:10 pm, "brewmaster" <brewmas... RemoveThis @brewcam.com> wrote:
> On Feb 8 2008 7:06 PM, Preston wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 8, 9:02 pm, bigjimmf1 <jimmyhoneyw... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Preston wrote:
> > > >> Have you considered custody?
>
> > > >> --
> > > >> bigjimmf1
>
> > > > My ex and I get along quite well. She has physical custody of her, but
> > > > that's largely because I've been in another state. We have joint legal
> > > > custody of her and I have unlimited visitation rights. Why do you ask?
>
> > > It doesn't seem like a good idea to move to CA and become a professional
> > > poker player because:
>
> > > - you have a family
> > > - you sound as if you lack experience
> > > - you have a "cush job"
> > > - you have money saved
> > > - you need to seriously re-think "I find myself questioning why I would
> > > work harder and more hours for less money than the $30 an hour I feel I
> > > should be able to get at $15-30" gambling
>
> > > Listen to your friends.
>
> > > --
> > > bigjimmf1
>
> > I don't lack experience. I have logged thousands of hours playing and
> > I don't understand why people don't respect that. But the feedback I'm
> > getting here is all negative. So I suppose that answers my question.
> > Ya bunch of haters.
>
> You got some amazingly good advice from everyone here, some of whom have
> been/are "professional" poker players, and none of it was "hating".
> Seriously, you wanted to hear everyone say "great idea bud, do it" but you
> got actual, real, valuable advice.
>
> What did you ask for if you didn't want real answers?  You should post at
> alt.toadies instead.
>
> ________________________________________________________________________ 
> : the next generation of web-newsreaders :http://www.recgroups.com

On the contrary, some of it clearly was hatin; you chose to post
merely to post.
Not that I minded, but it was as strangely negative reaction.
 >> Stay informed about: Thinking of taking the plunge into Professional Poker 

On Feb 8, 9:42 pm, "XaQ Morphy" <a1c5....RemoveThis@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
> get back into it with that lack of keeping up with things, and 2) explain
> to possible employers my 2 year absence from the industry without flat out
> saying I was playing poker.

Dude, it's IT...people take breaks all the time. I see resumes with
people who've taken a year off because they always really wanted to
spend a year in a Zen monastery or they had a chance to go on a 6-
month Eco challenge or they thought they wanted to run a dry cleaning
franchise and it was a disaster.

Saying "I took a year off because I thought I wanted to be a poker
pro" is nothing. Sure, your skills will decay a bit, but really, in
TWO years? No, I call nonsense on that. If you are a master of, say,
Oracle 9i you can still easily find work today even though 11g is out
and 9i is being unsupported. If you're a world-class Java programmer,
you will still be a world-class Java programmer in two years. People
are still making money on their COBOL skills. Etcetera...

Why does this have to be an all-or-nothing plunge? I'm sure you have
some vacation time. Take a month off or six weeks (even if a couple
weeks of it are unpaid) and go live like you're a poker pro - play 40
hours a week. See where you are at the end of six weeks.
 >> Stay informed about: Thinking of taking the plunge into Professional Poker 

On Feb 8, 5:52 pm, Preston <prestonpoul... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure what you do for a living, but $30 an hour is just fine
> for me.

It depends where you live more than anything else. $30/hr = $60,000 a
year (30 * 2000 hours). $60K a year will not buy you a house or
anything like a house in any major West Coast city. For that matter,
if you made $120K a year you're probably still looking at a condo.
$500,000 starter houses are not uncommon in LA.

Also, it depends on your tax jurisdiction. In California, you have 9%
income tax + 9% sales tax + 3% of your car's value as a registration
fee every year + high property taxes. That's a whole lot more than
lots of the middle-country states. Also, gas taxes are higher, and in
my experience lots of basic cost of living things are higher in
California. Same in Seattle or Portland for that matter.

And that's $60K alone...add in kids and yes, it is expensive. I could
comfortably live on $60K in many rural areas and cheaper/smaller urban
areas, but you'd be surprised how little $60K is in a big city.

Granted, yes, you could live on that much - grilled cheese sandwiches,
studio apartment, beater car, etc. Depends on your expectations. I'd
be willing to live in poverty to pursue a dream. I would not be
willing to have my children live in poverty for my dream, however.
 >> Stay informed about: Thinking of taking the plunge into Professional Poker 

On Feb 9 2008 8:15 PM, Preston wrote:

> On Feb 9, 3:10 pm, "brewmaster" <brewmas... DeleteThis @brewcam.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 8 2008 7:06 PM, Preston wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 8, 9:02 pm, bigjimmf1 <jimmyhoneyw... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Preston wrote:
> > > > >> Have you considered custody?
> >
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> bigjimmf1
> >
> > > > > My ex and I get along quite well. She has physical custody of her,
but
> > > > > that's largely because I've been in another state. We have joint
legal
> > > > > custody of her and I have unlimited visitation rights. Why do you
ask?
> >
> > > > It doesn't seem like a good idea to move to CA and become a
professional
> > > > poker player because:
> >
> > > > - you have a family
> > > > - you sound as if you lack experience
> > > > - you have a "cush job"
> > > > - you have money saved
> > > > - you need to seriously re-think "I find myself questioning why I would
> > > > work harder and more hours for less money than the $30 an hour I feel I
> > > > should be able to get at $15-30" gambling
> >
> > > > Listen to your friends.
> >
> > > > --
> > > > bigjimmf1
> >
> > > I don't lack experience. I have logged thousands of hours playing and
> > > I don't understand why people don't respect that. But the feedback I'm
> > > getting here is all negative. So I suppose that answers my question.
> > > Ya bunch of haters.
> >
> > You got some amazingly good advice from everyone here, some of whom have
> > been/are "professional" poker players, and none of it was "hating".
> > Seriously, you wanted to hear everyone say "great idea bud, do it" but you
> > got actual, real, valuable advice.
> >
> > What did you ask for if you didn't want real answers? You should post at
> > alt.toadies instead.
> >
> On the contrary, some of it clearly was hatin; you chose to post
> merely to post.

Quote one of the posts that was "hating".

> Not that I minded, but it was as strangely negative reaction.

Because it is a bad idea.

---- 
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
 >> Stay informed about: Thinking of taking the plunge into Professional Poker 

On Feb 9, 10:59 pm, A Man Beaten by Jacks <nob... RemoveThis @fool.foo> wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 20:15:12 -0800 (PST), Preston <prestonpoul... RemoveThis @hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On the contrary, some of it clearly was hatin; you chose to post
> >merely to post.
> >Not that I minded, but it was as strangely negative reaction.
>
> Perhaps you should have included in your original post a request that
> only replies like "Wow, that's a great idea, best idea I ever heard"
> were welcome.

You misrepresent my position. At no point did I ever say anything of
the kind.
I am mystified by people such as yourself posting negative comments
merely to post
negative comments, but that's the nature of the internet I suppose.

I do want to thank the other people who have replied with informative
suggestions. It has helped me in forming my decisions.
 >> Stay informed about: Thinking of taking the plunge into Professional Poker 

On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 20:15:12 -0800 (PST), Preston <prestonpoulter.DeleteThis@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On the contrary, some of it clearly was hatin; you chose to post
>merely to post.
>Not that I minded, but it was as strangely negative reaction.

Perhaps you should have included in your original post a request that
only replies like "Wow, that's a great idea, best idea I ever heard"
were welcome.
 >> Stay informed about: Thinking of taking the plunge into Professional Poker 

On Feb 9 2008 10:24 AM, Irish Mike wrote:

> "Auburn Sam" wrote in message
> news:1202535547$1105437@recpoker.com...
> >
> > On Feb 8 2008 3:58 PM, Preston wrote:
> >
> >> I've played poker as a hobby a lot. I keep records and I do win about
> >> the usual big bet an hour. Right now I have a cush job in Dallas that
> >> has allowed me to save up quite a bit of money, but my six year old
> >> daughter is in LA and I need to be closer to her. I've started looking
> >> for a job out there, but I find myself questioning why I would work
> >> harder and more hours for less money than the $30 an hour I feel I
> >> should be able to get at $15-30 at one of the LA casinos.
> >>
> >> Now my experience at $15-30 is pretty limited- about 11 hours or so.
> >> But out of those $20 hours I've won $1800 in some of the loosest and
> >> most bizarre games I've seen. I know that this is not even close to a
> >> long term average, but it does reinforce in my mind that the game is
> >> plenty soft if I chose to make my living that way.
> >>
> >> But the other people in my life actively discourage me and I guess I
> >> don't have the courage to really do it. I feel I need to have a day
> >> job to go to just so I can say I do something, else I will be labeled
> >> as a loser.
> >>
> >> I guess I'm torn and looking for advice.
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >> Preston
> >
> > Take a weeks vacation.
> >
> > Fly to LA on a roundtrip. $350
> >
> > Book a week in hotel. $400
> >
> > Rent a car for the week. $150
> >
> > Food budget $200
> >
> > Play and hang out at the Bike or Commerce for 10-12hrs each day.
> >
> > Bankroll yourself $2500 and see if you can grind out $200/day.
> >
> > $1100 for a vacation (not counting your roll cause you're gonna beat the
> > games
> > you play) and first hand experience.
> >
> > Come back and tell us what happened and what You think.
> >
> > Auburn Sam
>
> That's very good advice bucko. You should take it. I'd also be interested
> to learn how you did.
>
> Irish Mike
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - /

Quite well actually. I played successfully for a living from 1968 thru 1989.

Not quite sure why this stuck a nerve with you.

Your bankroll advice is about as close to correct as I've read here. Not many of
us advocate loss limits and win plateaus coupled with blow-back limits. Blowing
off a couple of grand for the experience seems reasonable to me, considering
what he may be risking.

Anything else you would like to know?

Auburn Sam

_______________________________________________________________
New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com
 >> Stay informed about: Thinking of taking the plunge into Professional Poker 

"Auburn Sam" <coxbc.DeleteThis@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1202601753$1105653@recpoker.com...
>
>
>
> On Feb 9 2008 10:24 AM, Irish Mike wrote:
>
>> "Auburn Sam" wrote in message
>> news:1202535547$1105437@recpoker.com...
>> >
>> > On Feb 8 2008 3:58 PM, Preston wrote:
>> >
>> >> I've played poker as a hobby a lot. I keep records and I do win about
>> >> the usual big bet an hour. Right now I have a cush job in Dallas that
>> >> has allowed me to save up quite a bit of money, but my six year old
>> >> daughter is in LA and I need to be closer to her. I've started looking
>> >> for a job out there, but I find myself questioning why I would work
>> >> harder and more hours for less money than the $30 an hour I feel I
>> >> should be able to get at $15-30 at one of the LA casinos.
>> >>
>> >> Now my experience at $15-30 is pretty limited- about 11 hours or so.
>> >> But out of those $20 hours I've won $1800 in some of the loosest and
>> >> most bizarre games I've seen. I know that this is not even close to a
>> >> long term average, but it does reinforce in my mind that the game is
>> >> plenty soft if I chose to make my living that way.
>> >>
>> >> But the other people in my life actively discourage me and I guess I
>> >> don't have the courage to really do it. I feel I need to have a day
>> >> job to go to just so I can say I do something, else I will be labeled
>> >> as a loser.
>> >>
>> >> I guess I'm torn and looking for advice.
>> >>
>> >> Sincerely,
>> >> Preston
>> >
>> > Take a weeks vacation.
>> >
>> > Fly to LA on a roundtrip. $350
>> >
>> > Book a week in hotel. $400
>> >
>> > Rent a car for the week. $150
>> >
>> > Food budget $200
>> >
>> > Play and hang out at the Bike or Commerce for 10-12hrs each day.
>> >
>> > Bankroll yourself $2500 and see if you can grind out $200/day.
>> >
>> > $1100 for a vacation (not counting your roll cause you're gonna beat
>> > the
>> > games
>> > you play) and first hand experience.
>> >
>> > Come back and tell us what happened and what You think.
>> >
>> > Auburn Sam
>>
>> That's very good advice bucko. You should take it. I'd also be interested
>> to learn how you did.
>>
>> Irish Mike
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________________________
>> > Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - /
>
> Quite well actually. I played successfully for a living from 1968 thru
> 1989.
>
> Not quite sure why this stuck a nerve with you.
>
> Your bankroll advice is about as close to correct as I've read here. Not
> many of
> us advocate loss limits and win plateaus coupled with blow-back limits.
> Blowing
> off a couple of grand for the experience seems reasonable to me,
> considering
> what he may be risking.
>
> Anything else you would like to know?
>
> Auburn Sam
>
Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear. I wasn't asking how you did Sam. I
was advising the OP to follow your advice, which I thought was very good.

Irish Mike




> New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com
 >> Stay informed about: Thinking of taking the plunge into Professional Poker 

On Feb 9 2008 4:25 PM, Irish Mike wrote:

> "Auburn Sam" wrote in message
> news:1202601753$1105653@recpoker.com...
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 9 2008 10:24 AM, Irish Mike wrote:
> >
> >> "Auburn Sam" wrote in message
> >> news:1202535547$1105437@recpoker.com...
> >> >
> >> > On Feb 8 2008 3:58 PM, Preston wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I've played poker as a hobby a lot. I keep records and I do win about
> >> >> the usual big bet an hour. Right now I have a cush job in Dallas that
> >> >> has allowed me to save up quite a bit of money, but my six year old
> >> >> daughter is in LA and I need to be closer to her. I've started looking
> >> >> for a job out there, but I find myself questioning why I would work
> >> >> harder and more hours for less money than the $30 an hour I feel I
> >> >> should be able to get at $15-30 at one of the LA casinos.
> >> >>
> >> >> Now my experience at $15-30 is pretty limited- about 11 hours or so.
> >> >> But out of those $20 hours I've won $1800 in some of the loosest and
> >> >> most bizarre games I've seen. I know that this is not even close to a
> >> >> long term average, but it does reinforce in my mind that the game is
> >> >> plenty soft if I chose to make my living that way.
> >> >>
> >> >> But the other people in my life actively discourage me and I guess I
> >> >> don't have the courage to really do it. I feel I need to have a day
> >> >> job to go to just so I can say I do something, else I will be labeled
> >> >> as a loser.
> >> >>
> >> >> I guess I'm torn and looking for advice.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sincerely,
> >> >> Preston
> >> >
> >> > Take a weeks vacation.
> >> >
> >> > Fly to LA on a roundtrip. $350
> >> >
> >> > Book a week in hotel. $400
> >> >
> >> > Rent a car for the week. $150
> >> >
> >> > Food budget $200
> >> >
> >> > Play and hang out at the Bike or Commerce for 10-12hrs each day.
> >> >
> >> > Bankroll yourself $2500 and see if you can grind out $200/day.
> >> >
> >> > $1100 for a vacation (not counting your roll cause you're gonna beat
> >> > the
> >> > games
> >> > you play) and first hand experience.
> >> >
> >> > Come back and tell us what happened and what You think.
> >> >
> >> > Auburn Sam
> >>
> >> That's very good advice bucko. You should take it. I'd also be interested
> >> to learn how you did.
> >>
> >> Irish Mike
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________________________
> >> > Watch Lists, Block Lists, Favorites - /
> >
> > Quite well actually. I played successfully for a living from 1968 thru
> > 1989.
> >
> > Not quite sure why this stuck a nerve with you.
> >
> > Your bankroll advice is about as close to correct as I've read here. Not
> > many of
> > us advocate loss limits and win plateaus coupled with blow-back limits.
> > Blowing
> > off a couple of grand for the experience seems reasonable to me,
> > considering
> > what he may be risking.
> >
> > Anything else you would like to know?
> >
> > Auburn Sam
> >
> Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear. I wasn't asking how you did Sam. I
> was advising the OP to follow your advice, which I thought was very good.
>
> Irish Mike
>
>
>
>
> > New Feature: Mark All As Read! - /

Lol at myself. Another example of the fact that I get easily confused these
days.

I just reread what you wrote and see what you meant, and it's not what I thought
you meant.

Note to self:  Read twice, react once.

Auburn Sam

_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com
 >> Stay informed about: Thinking of taking the plunge into Professional Poker 

"Preston" <prestonpoulter.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a05533c9-fade-452f-bc13-54954e5bb2f3@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 9, 10:59 pm, A Man Beaten by Jacks <nob....DeleteThis@fool.foo> wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 20:15:12 -0800 (PST), Preston
> <prestonpoul....DeleteThis@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On the contrary, some of it clearly was hatin; you chose to post
> >merely to post.
> >Not that I minded, but it was as strangely negative reaction.
>
> Perhaps you should have included in your original post a request that
> only replies like "Wow, that's a great idea, best idea I ever heard"
> were welcome.

"You misrepresent my position. At no point did I ever say anything of
the kind.
I am mystified by people such as yourself posting negative comments
merely to post
negative comments, but that's the nature of the internet I suppose."


Well bucko, you asked a poker question and I gave you my best advice. So
did other RGPers, who have a lot of poker experience. We were glad to do it
because many of us have faced similar decisions. But now you're bitching
because the advice wasn't what you wanted to hear. So go make your own
decision, assuming you were ever serious about it, and move your ungrateful
ass on down the line.

Irish Mike
 >> Stay informed about: Thinking of taking the plunge into Professional Poker 

On Feb 10, 1:32 am, "Irish Mike" <mjos....TakeThisOut@ameritech.net> wrote:
> "Preston" <prestonpoul....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a05533c9-fade-452f-bc13-54954e5bb2f3@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 9, 10:59 pm, A Man Beaten by Jacks <nob....TakeThisOut@fool.foo> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 20:15:12 -0800 (PST), Preston
> > <prestonpoul....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >On the contrary, some of it clearly was hatin; you chose to post
> > >merely to post.
> > >Not that I minded, but it was as strangely negative reaction.
>
> > Perhaps you should have included in your original post a request that
> > only replies like "Wow, that's a great idea, best idea I ever heard"
> > were welcome.
>
> "You misrepresent my position. At no point did I ever say anything of
> the kind.
> I am mystified by people such as yourself posting negative comments
> merely to post
> negative comments, but that's the nature of the internet I suppose."
>
> Well bucko, you asked a poker question and I gave you my best advice.  So
> did other RGPers, who have a lot of poker experience.  We were glad to do it
> because many of us have faced similar decisions.  But now you're bitching
> because the advice wasn't what you wanted to hear.  So go make your own
> decision, assuming you were ever serious about it, and move your ungrateful
> ass on down the line.
>
> Irish Mike

Actually Irish Mike I was considering messaging you personally to get
some more of your insights into your own poker experiences.
If I did not make my gratitude adequately known to you, I apologize. I
did respond to some posters who seemed, as I mentioned. "strangely
negative" about things and you now the thread has become "Preston is
bitching because he didn't hear what he wanted to." There's no truth
to that, and there never was.
 >> Stay informed about: Thinking of taking the plunge into Professional Poker