Good Limit hand for a Hand-Range analysis

On Jul 21, 2:54 pm, "KookieMonstr" <alower... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> Looking for thoughts on this hand.  
>
> 6-handed table $5/10 Limit Hold'em online.   Usual loose aggressive game.
> All players are typical.
>
> I raise UTG with AK, get 3-bet by the button.  Heads-up I call.  
>
> Flop is K J T.  I check-call.
>
> Turn is 7.  I check-call.
>
> River is 5.  I check-call.
>
> What is going on here?  In your opinon, did I play good/bad?
>
> KookieMonstr.
>
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I like the idea of check-raising the flop to get a little more
information and get the guy to lay down hands like 99 and smaller
pairs (if that's possible). You played it exacly how I would play
against a maniac in a live game - so that might be "standard" in the 6
handed online 5/10 games.

Croupe
 >> Stay informed about: Good Limit hand for a Hand-Range analysis 

On Jul 22 2008 10:03 AM, John_Brian_K wrote:

> > I think you played it fine.
> >
> > Fell
> > --
> > "One should always play fairly - when one has the winning cards."
> > Oscar Wilde
>
> Fell, You think he played it fine? Really? How is that again? The
> object is to win as much as possible or lose the least amount possible.
> How is check calling to the swamp accomplishing ANY of those things?
>
> John

Because it is a 6-handed game. In a full ring game, Check-folding on the
flop against a tight 3 bettor would be the correct play (his 3-betting
range would likely be JJ+, AQ+). You are absolutely CRUSHED by this range
on this flop.

In a 6 handed game, you are going to be 3-bet light a lot more, but this
is still a very scary flop. KJ, KT, JT, are often 3 betting, but so are
JQ, KQ, maybe QT, AJ, AT, and other hands you have crushed. Your equity
against this new range is much better, but if you decide to go to war, you
are going to be narrowing his range back to the hands that have you
crushed. I like a check-call the flop, and check-call the turn,
check-call the river, line about 50% of the time, and a check-raise the
turn, bet the river line the other 50% of the time.

Fell
--
"One should always play fairly - when one has the winning cards."
Oscar Wilde

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> Because it is a 6-handed game. In a full ring game, Check-folding on the
> flop against a tight 3 bettor would be the correct play (his 3-betting
> range would likely be JJ+, AQ+). You are absolutely CRUSHED by this range
> on this flop.
>
> In a 6 handed game, you are going to be 3-bet light a lot more, but this
> is still a very scary flop. KJ, KT, JT, are often 3 betting, but so are
> JQ, KQ, maybe QT, AJ, AT, and other hands you have crushed. Your equity
> against this new range is much better, but if you decide to go to war, you
> are going to be narrowing his range back to the hands that have you
> crushed. I like a check-call the flop, and check-call the turn,
> check-call the river, line about 50% of the time, and a check-raise the
> turn, bet the river line the other 50% of the time.
>
> Fell
> --
> "One should always play fairly - when one has the winning cards."
> Oscar Wilde

Thanks Fell that clears it up a little even though I take a different
approach I see your reasoning.

TIGERS World Series- 35, 45, 68, 84
RED WINGS Stanley Cups- 36, 37, 43, 50, 52, 54, 55, 97, 98, 02, 08
PISTONS Championships- 44, 45, 89, 90, 05
LIONS Superbowls- lol

BOOM byae
John

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 >> Stay informed about: Good Limit hand for a Hand-Range analysis 

I put his range as TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, and AQ.

After the flop I was only ahead of one hand out of those: QQ.

Check-raising the flop is a close call. However, you are you then
resigned to calling down after you get 3-bet? or can you fold there? Fold
on the river then? Its unclear.

I really hate check-raising the turn unless you have the fortitude to let
it go when 3-bet. And even then you are setting yourself up to get moved
off of hands. If you incorrectly fold on the turn even 1/10 it quickly
becomes a huge problem. Good mid-limit players will pick up on this
quickly and start going to the turn with you holding nothing in their hand
just so they can try and put in the killer turn-raise. Its a sick move if
you know your opponent will fold his hand frequently enough. It lets you
start playing weak hands like 89 or T7 becasue you've got so many ways to
win now.

Ok, enough on that. I think my play deserves some criticism becasue it
couldn't be that great of a line. Somewhere in there someone has to be
breaking the fundamental therom of poker. I am a stong believer in that,
so that proves there is something better. I think maybe I could have
folded on the river. Thats the one point where I get a gut feeling that I
misplayed the hand, I just hate to pay off. Anyway, heres the results:

I was up against AQ, and my opponent played the hand as well as he could
given the action. But note that I didn't let him get great value,
certainly not as much as he could have if I had followed some other lines.
Win the most, Lose the least.

KookieMonstr.

On Jul 21 2008 1:54 PM, KookieMonstr wrote:

> Looking for thoughts on this hand.
>
> 6-handed table $5/10 Limit Hold'em online. Usual loose aggressive game.
> All players are typical.
>
> I raise UTG with AK, get 3-bet by the button. Heads-up I call.
>
> Flop is K J T. I check-call.
>
> Turn is 7. I check-call.
>
> River is 5. I check-call.
>
> What is going on here? In your opinon, did I play good/bad?
>
> KookieMonstr.

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 >> Stay informed about: Good Limit hand for a Hand-Range analysis 

On Jul 22, 7:54 am, "KookieMonstr" <alower....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> 6-handed table $5/10 Limit Hold'em online. Usual loose aggressive game.
> All players are typical.
>
> I raise UTG with AK, get 3-bet by the button. Heads-up I call.
>
> Flop is K J T. I check-call.
> Turn is 7. I check-call.
> River is 5. I check-call.

I don't play as high as 5/10, but in my experience,
many 6max players will three-bet on the button with
any group 1-7 hand or thereabouts, in order to
isolate with position (even if not with the best hand!).

Against such a range you can't fold this before
showdown regardless of the turn and river.

I don't know whether it's best to raise at some
point for value (certainly not for information -
such an opponent will reraise you with anything
just to see how serious you are about the hand);
I can't fault your play if you have any doubt
about the opponent's range.

Personally I wouldn't slow down until the
opponent raised the turn (not saying that
that is a good play, it's just what I would do).

BTW please don't tell us what the opponent had,
as it will lead to results-oriented versions of how
it should have been played!
 >> Stay informed about: Good Limit hand for a Hand-Range analysis 

> BTW please don't tell us what the opponent had,
> as it will lead to results-oriented versions of how
> it should have been played!

On the contrary please do tell what he had so the people who got it right
can rub it in the face of those that got it wrong.

(I am kidding for those who do not know), but not about posting what
villain had. I would like to know that.

TIGERS World Series- 35, 45, 68, 84
RED WINGS Stanley Cups- 36, 37, 43, 50, 52, 54, 55, 97, 98, 02, 08
PISTONS Championships- 44, 45, 89, 90, 05
LIONS Superbowls- lol

BOOM byae
John

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 >> Stay informed about: Good Limit hand for a Hand-Range analysis 

On Jul 21, 3:54 pm, "KookieMonstr" <alower... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 6-handed table $5/10 Limit Hold'em online. Usual loose aggressive game.
> All players are typical.
>
> I raise UTG with AK, get 3-bet by the button. Heads-up I call.

This is bad. This is an easy re-raise. In fact, it's a must. Having
the betting lead is hugely important in shorthanded limit poker,
especially in HU pots. Not to mention the strength of your hand,
especially at a short table, demands a raise.

> Flop is K J T. I check-call.

As played, check-raise. If you re-raised before the flop - like you
should have - you bet, of course. This is a tough board where you may
have to yield to strong action (you're still showdown bound), but I
would play your hand aggressively.

> Turn is 7. I check-call.

Bet, if you had taken the right line.

> River is 5. I check-call.

As above.

Optionally, against certain opponents, you could have called the flop
and check-raised one of the later streets (particularly if you want to
induce bluffs), but I would prefer to raise the flop in the standard
case.

> What is going on here? In your opinon, did I play good/bad?

I will be blunt...this is bad shorthanded poker. Way too passive.
You'll get steamrolled against good players. Against bad players,
you'll miss value. Read the following book if you want to see the
light:

Limit Hold'em: Winning short-handed strategies. Techniques for limit
hold'em games with 6 players or less. Terry Borer, Lawrence Mak, Barry
Tanenbaum.

JG
 >> Stay informed about: Good Limit hand for a Hand-Range analysis 

Basically with AK in limit against a loose aggressive player you need
to raise if you hit the flop. If the button was a tight player then
check call is fine. But your line should be bet-raise on flop. Bet-
call on turn. River bet if you haven't been raised twice or more.
Otherwise call.
 >> Stay informed about: Good Limit hand for a Hand-Range analysis 

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:01:01 -0700 (PDT), cpdeadhead
<cpdeadhead.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Basically with AK in limit against a loose aggressive player you need
>to raise if you hit the flop. If the button was a tight player then
>check call is fine. But your line should be bet-raise on flop. Bet-
>call on turn. River bet if you haven't been raised twice or more.
>Otherwise call.

There are times I'd take the line of waiting to raise the turn, less
often on this flop. Not because it's objectively good for this hand,
but to potentially slow him down on future hands when my holding is
weaker. There are also times I'd continue aggression despite him
playing back at me, even on the turn. If the opponent is capable of
raising the turn on a draw as a semi-bluff or to try to buy a cheap
showdown with a middle strength hand, I'd want to punish that.

Another reasonable line is bet-call the flop, check-raise the turn. I
don't like this, however, because if my opponent has raised for a free
card, I've just given it to him. If he's the kind of guy who responds
to me three betting his attempt to raise for a free card by CAPPING
for a "free" card, then I want to punish that by continuing to come
after him on the turn and only slowing down if he continues raising.
I'd want to know he was capable of sophisticated plays like this
before I bothered getting fancy myself, though. My original response
was IMO the ABC way to play it and will work against most 5/10
opponents in these games.

When mixing up my play in limit, though, I strongly prefer playing
weaker hands more aggressively to playing strong hands slowly,
especially vulnerable TPTK type hands. If I chose to play this hand
slowly, it would be for some reason specifically related to this
player (or conceivably other players at the table who I am aware
actually watch).

I notice FellKnight says he liked the play, and I wonder why. It
strikes me as the worst of all possible lines, and only occasionally
to be taken. I see it as not making any more from worse hands and
letting them suck out cheap. Sure, you limit your losses when you let
the guy draw out cheap, and I suppose you save rake when the other guy
also has AK, but I don't see much advantage to it. Perhaps he doesn't
have many outs if a three bet usually means a big pair, but I see no
reason in a game described as aggressive that a three bet from a
player with position is always going to be a big pair (i.e. with only
two outs if he hasn't already flopped a set or a straight draw).
 >> Stay informed about: Good Limit hand for a Hand-Range analysis 

The button showed strength pre-flop by reraising an UTG raise. There's
no point in capping it (if it's a four bet max) with AK. (AA, KK, fine)


On the flop, you have TPTK and you have to bet.

You have to be concerned, given the flop, about two pair, possibly a
set and you should have the feeling that you're begging to be trapped
out of position if you check raise. Given your opponents actions, you
shouldn't be confident enough with your hand to check raise out of
position against pre-flop strength.

So, bet the flop. If your opponent just calls, it's the best possible
outcome. If your opponent raises, you're probably behind. Your opponent
sees the K on the board, and yet, raises.

If your opponent raises your flop bet, call, and check call the hand
down if your hand doesn't improve.

If your opponent calls your flop bet, bet out on the turn.

Repeat 'til showdown.

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On Jul 23, 3:05 pm, Travel <nine....DeleteThis@webtv.net> wrote:
> The button showed strength pre-flop by reraising an UTG raise.
> There's no point in capping it (if it's a four bet max) with AK. (AA, KK,
> fine)

No offense, but this made my head explode. If you don't cap here in 6-
max LHE, you've got a big leak in your game. It's that simple.

Forgetting about specific hands for a second, having the betting lead
is huge in this scenario. At short tables, you are going to have to
play more hands, which means more marginal hands, and more missed
flops, for both you and your opponents. It's also important to note
that most pots are contested HU, or sometimes 3-way.

There is one common scenario which happens over and over and over in
shorthanded LHE: you and your opponent take a flop HU, often with less
than premium hands, and you both miss. This is a recurring scenario.
Who is going to win those pots? Answer: the vast majority of the time,
the guy who has the betting lead. If you are consistently losing pots
in this situation (because you were too passive pre-flop), you are
leaving a ton of money on the table over the long term.

Simply put, being the aggressor pre-flop puts you in the best position
to win the pot post-flop. This is magnified shorthanded, since you
often only need to make one opponent fold post-flop to take down the
pot (as most pots are HU). Given that you are playing more hands, you
are put in this situation fairly often, which means a mistake in
strategy is is going to be multiplied.

Also, having the pre-flop betting lead will allow you to sometimes
make better hands fold post-flop. If you open with TT from UTG, and JJ
isolates you, and you cap, you can sometimes force your opponent out
when the flop comes overcards. When the flop is AQ7, JJ isn't feeling
so good, especially against your strong betting. Conversely, conceding
the betting lead means you are prone to getting pushed off the best
hand when the flop isn't favorable (reverse the scenario above -- you
have JJ, the button has TT, and the flop has overcards).

Lastly, you get additional information by taking the lead early in the
hand.

Bottom-line is, you absolutely need to be aggressive pre-flop in
shorthanded LHE (and *calling* a raise pre-flop with AK is not
aggressive!) Take the lead and make your opponents react to you.

Now let's talk about hand ranges in 6-max LHE. You are making the
mistake of not adjusting to a short table. You are applying ring game
mentality to a loose-aggressive shorthanded game. An UTG raise in 6-
max LHE does not necessarily mean a premium hand. Not at all. Most
people (although apparently not some in this thread!) know that you
need to loosen up when playing shorthanded. But most people take this
concept too far. They will open-raise from UTG with hands like A6s,
K9s, A8o, 44, etc. They play too loose from early position. Also, good
players will sometimes open-raise from early position with medium
suited connectors (e.g., 78s) or low pairs, for deception.

What I am getting at is, an UTG raise in 6-max isn't treated with the
respect it gets in a ring game, because people raise with all sorts of
hands from up front. Therefore, later position players - having seen
the types of hands being played from early position - don't
necessarily have to have premium hands to isolate. Proper play
dictates that you should have a good hand to isolate, though, but as
above, most players take this concept too far and isolate early
raisers with marginal hands.

In the hand given by the original poster, you will be giving a typical
button player too much credit if you assume he's popping you only with
premium hands.

JG
 >> Stay informed about: Good Limit hand for a Hand-Range analysis 

This is a great condescending reply if you are talking to a 0.25/0.50 LHE
player. I don't need the endless lecture on basic strategy and the
advantage of aggression. (Although it was probably good homework for you
to formulate your thoughts on paper). This was a specific situation based
on a read in this particular hand. At the time, I had control of the
table and for the most part I was getting respect and not being played
back at. I think my hand range analysis was appropriate. You may be one
who disagrees.


On Jul 23 2008 4:48 PM, JG wrote:

> On Jul 23, 3:05 pm, Travel <nine....TakeThisOut@webtv.net> wrote:
> > The button showed strength pre-flop by reraising an UTG raise.
> > There's no point in capping it (if it's a four bet max) with AK. (AA, KK,
> > fine)
>
> No offense, but this made my head explode. If you don't cap here in 6-
> max LHE, you've got a big leak in your game. It's that simple.
>

Wrong. For the record, I will cap preflop most of the time here, but not
always, for various reasons.

> Forgetting about specific hands for a second, having the betting lead
> is huge in this scenario. At short tables, you are going to have to
> play more hands, which means more marginal hands, and more missed
> flops, for both you and your opponents. It's also important to note
> that most pots are contested HU, or sometimes 3-way.
>
> There is one common scenario which happens over and over and over in
> shorthanded LHE: you and your opponent take a flop HU, often with less
> than premium hands, and you both miss. This is a recurring scenario.
> Who is going to win those pots? Answer: the vast majority of the time,
> the guy who has the betting lead. If you are consistently losing pots
> in this situation (because you were too passive pre-flop), you are
> leaving a ton of money on the table over the long term.
>

This assumes you have to fold when you don't have the lead and/or don't
have a hand? Uhh?

> Simply put, being the aggressor pre-flop puts you in the best position
> to win the pot post-flop. This is magnified shorthanded, since you
> often only need to make one opponent fold post-flop to take down the
> pot (as most pots are HU). Given that you are playing more hands, you
> are put in this situation fairly often, which means a mistake in
> strategy is is going to be multiplied.
>
> Also, having the pre-flop betting lead will allow you to sometimes
> make better hands fold post-flop. If you open with TT from UTG, and JJ
> isolates you, and you cap, you can sometimes force your opponent out
> when the flop comes overcards. When the flop is AQ7, JJ isn't feeling
> so good, especially against your strong betting. Conversely, conceding
> the betting lead means you are prone to getting pushed off the best
> hand when the flop isn't favorable (reverse the scenario above -- you
> have JJ, the button has TT, and the flop has overcards).
>
> Lastly, you get additional information by taking the lead early in the
> hand.

Please elaborate. This is online, not Vegas, there is a 4-bet cap. I
will gain what information from 4-betting?

>
> Bottom-line is, you absolutely need to be aggressive pre-flop in
> shorthanded LHE (and *calling* a raise pre-flop with AK is not
> aggressive!) Take the lead and make your opponents react to you.
>
> Now let's talk about hand ranges in 6-max LHE. You are making the
> mistake of not adjusting to a short table. You are applying ring game
> mentality to a loose-aggressive shorthanded game. An UTG raise in 6-
> max LHE does not necessarily mean a premium hand. Not at all. Most
> people (although apparently not some in this thread!) know that you
> need to loosen up when playing shorthanded. But most people take this
> concept too far. They will open-raise from UTG with hands like A6s,
> K9s, A8o, 44, etc. They play too loose from early position. Also, good
> players will sometimes open-raise from early position with medium
> suited connectors (e.g., 78s) or low pairs, for deception.
>
> What I am getting at is, an UTG raise in 6-max isn't treated with the
> respect it gets in a ring game, because people raise with all sorts of
> hands from up front. Therefore, later position players - having seen
> the types of hands being played from early position - don't
> necessarily have to have premium hands to isolate. Proper play
> dictates that you should have a good hand to isolate, though, but as
> above, most players take this concept too far and isolate early
> raisers with marginal hands.
>
> In the hand given by the original poster, you will be giving a typical
> button player too much credit if you assume he's popping you only with
> premium hands.

Agreed. If I was a robot playing against robots I should have capped.
Thanks for the advice.

>
> JG

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 >> Stay informed about: Good Limit hand for a Hand-Range analysis 

On Jul 23, 7:33 pm, "KookieMonstr" <alower... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a great condescending reply if you are talking to a 0.25/0.50 LHE
> player. I don't need the endless lecture on basic strategy and the
> advantage of aggression.

Don't post asking for feedback if you can't handle the replies. Geez.

> This was a specific situation based on a read in this particular hand.  At the time, I
> had control of the table and for the most part I was getting respect and not being
> played back at.

You mention none of this in the original post. You said it was a
"usual" game and "all players are typical". Sounds like a typical hand
in a typical game, don't ya think?

> I think my hand range analysis was appropriate.  You may be one
> who disagrees.

With the information you gave (which wasn't much), I disagree. I base
this off of my own experience -- online 6-max LHE is all I play, and I
play at the limits used in your example.

> > No offense, but this made my head explode. If you don't cap here in 6-
> > max LHE, you've got a big leak in your game. It's that simple.
>
> Wrong.  For the record, I will cap preflop most of the time here, but not
> always, for various reasons.

I was replying to Travel's comment. Capping here is is absolutely the
correct play.

> > Lastly, you get additional information by taking the lead early in the
> > hand.
>
> Please elaborate.  This is online, not Vegas, there is a 4-bet cap.  I
> will gain what information from 4-betting?

Yes, you get information. You are representing a small range of hands
by capping pre-flop. Even if your opponent is dull, you've at least
represented a 'strong' hand. Therefore, any future action by your
opponent can be interpreted with this in mind. It's a significant help
when hand-reading on later streets (we're on multi-level thinking
here...what does he think I have?) Greenstein has an example hand in
his book where he talks about this concept -- defining a minimum hand
strength early can help you make decisions later on.

It's somewhat similar to the idea of limping with AA or checking the
big blind with AA -- in this case, your lack of pre-flop action can
lead your opponents to believe that you don't have AA (or big pairs)
as part of your range (or in simpler terms, you're not strong). You'd
then interpret his actions based on the fact that you're pretty sure
he's not putting you on Aces.

Oh, and go ahead and tell me I'm condescending for explaining this...

> Agreed.  If I was a robot playing against robots I should have capped.

Capping here is the default play. If you're saying everything is
typical, not doing it requires an explanation of why you played the
hand in an atypical way. Otherwise, someone is going to point it out
to you..

JG
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