an old question pops up yet again

Thanks K9way, I found your comments very enlighten.
Enough so to just start accepting and go with the
flow more.

umm, I mentioned Doyle cause most of the publicity
one reads suggests he started in an environment even
less conducive then bar leagues. I however did not
realize it was even more seedier. In a way it's
amazing he's was not shot dead.

Maybe you can you provide this neophyte with advise
on how to handle a rule type argument in these
less controlled places.

I still think the leagues should provide a comprehensive
rule booklet as part of the setup package. The written
word is as powerful as it get. It's not like it would
cost and would save a few fist fights from happening at
the very least.

AJ

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:44:16 -0700, "K9way" <ad14635.TakeThisOut@webnntp.invalid>
wrote:

>On Jul 22 2008 5:55 PM, AJ wrote:
>
>> Love the Bill Boyd quote, thanks.
>>
>> The real problem is the average Joe applies rules
>> in a communist fashion not in a friendly Bill Boyd type way.
>
>Funny that you should use the word communist and Bill Boyd in the same
>sentence. Bill was certainly not a communist but that word does remind one
>of the word 'dictator"
>
>Bill Boyd did more for poker than Moneymaker , Amarillo Slim , and ESPN
>combined. There would be no casino poker in Las vegas or anywhere else ,
>were it not for Bill Boyd. But Bill Boyd was a harsh, intolerant, dictator.
>
>Bill Boyd would make someone who wanted to be a dealer shill 1-3 stud
>games for 6 months just to earn a down in the same 1-3 stud game.. You
>make a mistake.. back to shilling. It would take their best dealers 2
>years to get a down in the 10-20game. harsh OH YEAH , but they had the
>best dealers in the world there, and if you werent caught stealing(and you
>better not), you could work anywhere in the industry.
>
>That was back when dealing was a profession rather than a"job".
>
>Now it is just a fuckin job infested with thousands of morons who couldnt
>pass an audition at the El Cortez
>> They don't see it as angle shooting. they see it as a rule
>> like criminal law as absolute. they don't get the idea that
>> by giving up one pot no matter how large they are keeping the
>> chance to get more pots in the future. Bill wanted his customer
>> to come back and so do I.
>>
>> The reason many rules exist is to stop and detect cheating.
>> otherwise the only real rule is Read'em and Weep. but like
>> I said the average Joe doesn't understand this.
>>
>> Some of you guy's in your Vegas bubble or worse online bubble
>> don't understand these type of people exist or that grassroots bar
>> leagues exist. TV is bringing them to you with above belief's.
>>
>> Bar poker is the world Doyle learned his game.
>
>Wrong Sparky!! Doyle learned the game in pool rooms , and private games in
>Texas. Doyle wasnt Teaxs's best Bar League player. There has been a
>circuit of SUPER High limit and N/L games in Texas for over 40-50 years.
>Amarillo Slim started in a pool room in Amarillo . Thye put a cover on the
>snooker table .
>
>
>
>TV and bar leagues
>> are bringing it back. the one exception between Doyle's time
>> and now is that the leagues have responsibility for supplying
>> a floor person which empowers them to set a standard.
>> agree with or not at least it's a standard that can be read
>> on the spot at the time of the argument with an untrained floor.
>>
>> A month ago I got into trouble telling a player he could not
>> pick up muck cards and look at them. He got all pissed and the
>> the floorperson yelled at me saying this is a free and friendly
>> game whats your problem? I'm like, HUH?
>>
>> At bar leagues the job of TD goes to who ever wants it.
>> they get paid a flat fee of $50 for about 4 hours of time.
>> to date I've only seen 2 of them worth any salt.
>>
>> They are all untrained and uncertified.
>
>Psst!1 i will let you in on a little 'trade secret". there are no training
>courses for floor people. they are usually 'juiced' into the job by
>friends and family or to pay a debt. hile there are schools for dealers.
>Not so for floor people
>
>Except for maybe the floor people at Foxwoods. they cant be that inept
>without some sort of training
>
>
>
> A MAJOR complaint
>> of mine with the league owners and at least one of them
>> knows it. Now another is going to.
>>
>> When I asked for a league rule book at the bars I get a
>> blank stare. League web site if rules are listed are very basic
>> and lame. Nothing you can use to hit arguing drunks with.
>>
>> I don't expect training and certifying at this level of play.
>> I do expect something comparable to Hoyle or Robert at each
>> bar as part of the setup package. we use clay chips and plastic
>> cards. so where's the rule booklet?
>>
>> Hell, RPG from 10 years ago has the best written rules
>> for home games I've ever seen. Beats Robert's Rules and
>> the Director's Association printout is a joke. In my
>> view if the TD Association want's power they need to
>> grab the grassroots also. that means a home game set
>> of rules different then casinos understandable by the
>> average drunk.
>
>Trust me the grassroots have found organized poker , and there are far
>more drunks in organized poker than in bar leagues !!
>
>**HIC**
>>
>> Sorry for the soap box
>>
>> AJ
>
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On Jul 23 2008 8:41 AM, AJ wrote:

> Maybe you can you provide this neophyte with advise
> on how to handle a rule type argument in these
> less controlled places.

A straight and a .38 beats a flush.

Fell
--
"One should always play fairly - when one has the winning cards."
Oscar Wilde

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 >> Stay informed about: an old question pops up yet again 

Poker bar leagues are just like bowling, pool, darts.

I believe there are five league organizations.
I'm familiar with four and play for three of them.

Leagues play in the actual bar. As part of the venue's
setup package they get folding portable felt tables,
plastic cards and clay chips. It's actually quite nice
until an argument breaks out.

Blind structure is usually fast and conducive for short
stack type play. Time allotted is usually 2-2.5 hours per
tournament. A few places have one event instead of two
so these are a little more relaxed but not by much.

One league has a horrible stack structure making for odd
decisions and very aggressive play action. They however
usually pay cash so it draws people in. It's a shame the
three leagues I in play in do not have a good package
of blind, points, and prizes. Each has a strength and
a weakness.

My state law limits daily prizes to $200. Most places
play two tournaments so prize is $100 for each which
is usually divided to $70, $20, $10. Many bars give this
as bar bucks not cash or some mix of bucks and cash.
Bars make there money back hopefully selling you products
while playing.

Points are awarded depending on final table placement or
how many people played. These points add up to qualify
you for the regional. If a person averages 8th place
during a season they will get a regional invite so you
do not have to ever win. Just play well and consistently.

All the league have a web site listing venues and your
current point position. Beware that they are slow to
update specially venue information so call ahead if your
just starting. Many places stop for the summer but are
still listed as active on the web.

Most leagues have seasons that go from two to twelve
times a year usually two to four seasons a year.
Qualifying in a season gets you an invite to a regional
which is still free. These regional's are played in a
casino to get around the prize limit law. Average
attendance is 300-700 depending on the league. Places
paid is limited at most to the final table. Most times
to just the top three.

Winning a regional usually gets you a free Vegas trip
and a seat to some notable tournament. Some leagues
have a national event where the regional's meet in Vegas
and they play only other bar leaguers.

The system is a wonderful training ground. You more
professional players might think of trying us out for
testing different styles of play. If one makes the
regional top three they are usually ready for the next
step of Vegas level play without getting grossly fleeced.

AJ
 >> Stay informed about: an old question pops up yet again 

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:30:21 -0700, "Aodhan" <a169b.DeleteThis@webnntp.invalid>
wrote:

>One might say "Well, he tossed his
>cards in a folding motion, it's a dead hand", while another could say
>"Well, it didn't touch anything, and it got turned over before it was
>swept so it's live".

It depends on the house rule. Most card rooms use the latter, but I
prefer the former.

Just hang on to your cards until the pot has been pushed to you or you
know you're beaten. The players who just assume they're the last one
left and toss their cards before they get the pot are the ones who are
generally starting the ruckus that makes it necessary for a floor
decision.

Peg
 >> Stay informed about: an old question pops up yet again 

On Jul 23 2008 7:41 AM, AJ wrote:

> Thanks K9way, I found your comments very enlighten.
> Enough so to just start accepting and go with the
> flow more.
>
> umm, I mentioned Doyle cause most of the publicity
> one reads suggests he started in an environment even
> less conducive then bar leagues. I however did not
> realize it was even more seedier. In a way it's
> amazing he's was not shot dead.
>
> Maybe you can you provide this neophyte with advise
> on how to handle a rule type argument in these
> less controlled places.

OK HERE IS ONE . When confronted with a rules issue , act like you are
thinking REAL HARD, then when the ruling is questioned just simply say
"INDUSTRY STANDARD", works for me every time !!
>
> I still think the leagues should provide a comprehensive
> rule booklet as part of the setup package. The written
> word is as powerful as it get. It's not like it would
> cost and would save a few fist fights from happening at
> the very least.
>
> AJ
>
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:44:16 -0700, "K9way" <ad14635.DeleteThis@webnntp.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >On Jul 22 2008 5:55 PM, AJ wrote:
> >
> >> Love the Bill Boyd quote, thanks.
> >>
> >> The real problem is the average Joe applies rules
> >> in a communist fashion not in a friendly Bill Boyd type way.
> >
> >Funny that you should use the word communist and Bill Boyd in the same
> >sentence. Bill was certainly not a communist but that word does remind one
> >of the word 'dictator"
> >
> >Bill Boyd did more for poker than Moneymaker , Amarillo Slim , and ESPN
> >combined. There would be no casino poker in Las vegas or anywhere else ,
> >were it not for Bill Boyd. But Bill Boyd was a harsh, intolerant, dictator.
> >
> >Bill Boyd would make someone who wanted to be a dealer shill 1-3 stud
> >games for 6 months just to earn a down in the same 1-3 stud game.. You
> >make a mistake.. back to shilling. It would take their best dealers 2
> >years to get a down in the 10-20game. harsh OH YEAH , but they had the
> >best dealers in the world there, and if you werent caught stealing(and you
> >better not), you could work anywhere in the industry.
> >
> >That was back when dealing was a profession rather than a"job".
> >
> >Now it is just a fuckin job infested with thousands of morons who couldnt
> >pass an audition at the El Cortez
> >> They don't see it as angle shooting. they see it as a rule
> >> like criminal law as absolute. they don't get the idea that
> >> by giving up one pot no matter how large they are keeping the
> >> chance to get more pots in the future. Bill wanted his customer
> >> to come back and so do I.
> >>
> >> The reason many rules exist is to stop and detect cheating.
> >> otherwise the only real rule is Read'em and Weep. but like
> >> I said the average Joe doesn't understand this.
> >>
> >> Some of you guy's in your Vegas bubble or worse online bubble
> >> don't understand these type of people exist or that grassroots bar
> >> leagues exist. TV is bringing them to you with above belief's.
> >>
> >> Bar poker is the world Doyle learned his game.
> >
> >Wrong Sparky!! Doyle learned the game in pool rooms , and private games in
> >Texas. Doyle wasnt Teaxs's best Bar League player. There has been a
> >circuit of SUPER High limit and N/L games in Texas for over 40-50 years.
> >Amarillo Slim started in a pool room in Amarillo . Thye put a cover on the
> >snooker table .
> >
> >
> >
> >TV and bar leagues
> >> are bringing it back. the one exception between Doyle's time
> >> and now is that the leagues have responsibility for supplying
> >> a floor person which empowers them to set a standard.
> >> agree with or not at least it's a standard that can be read
> >> on the spot at the time of the argument with an untrained floor.
> >>
> >> A month ago I got into trouble telling a player he could not
> >> pick up muck cards and look at them. He got all pissed and the
> >> the floorperson yelled at me saying this is a free and friendly
> >> game whats your problem? I'm like, HUH?
> >>
> >> At bar leagues the job of TD goes to who ever wants it.
> >> they get paid a flat fee of $50 for about 4 hours of time.
> >> to date I've only seen 2 of them worth any salt.
> >>
> >> They are all untrained and uncertified.
> >
> >Psst!1 i will let you in on a little 'trade secret". there are no training
> >courses for floor people. they are usually 'juiced' into the job by
> >friends and family or to pay a debt. hile there are schools for dealers.
> >Not so for floor people
> >
> >Except for maybe the floor people at Foxwoods. they cant be that inept
> >without some sort of training
> >
> >
> >
> > A MAJOR complaint
> >> of mine with the league owners and at least one of them
> >> knows it. Now another is going to.
> >>
> >> When I asked for a league rule book at the bars I get a
> >> blank stare. League web site if rules are listed are very basic
> >> and lame. Nothing you can use to hit arguing drunks with.
> >>
> >> I don't expect training and certifying at this level of play.
> >> I do expect something comparable to Hoyle or Robert at each
> >> bar as part of the setup package. we use clay chips and plastic
> >> cards. so where's the rule booklet?
> >>
> >> Hell, RPG from 10 years ago has the best written rules
> >> for home games I've ever seen. Beats Robert's Rules and
> >> the Director's Association printout is a joke. In my
> >> view if the TD Association want's power they need to
> >> grab the grassroots also. that means a home game set
> >> of rules different then casinos understandable by the
> >> average drunk.
> >
> >Trust me the grassroots have found organized poker , and there are far
> >more drunks in organized poker than in bar leagues !!
> >
> >**HIC**
> >>
> >> Sorry for the soap box
> >>
> >> AJ
> >
> >---- 
> >* kill-files, watch-lists, favorites, and more.. www.recgroups.com

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