Why can I just not learn this??

On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:33:06 -0700, "brewmaster" <brewmaster DeleteThis @brewcam.com> wrote:

>Live tourney last night, I have a stack of over 10k with blinds at
>200/400, ante 50. There is a guy at my table who may as well tattoo his
>cards to his forehead. He looks at his cards as soon as he gets them, he
>makes huge bets in any position with big hands, and limp calls with almost
>anything else. He limps utg and I limp on the button with 46, thinking I
>can push this guy around. Flop is 35T, two diamonds. This guy gobbles.
>I think for awhile and then push, and he instacalls with QT NO DIAMOND.
>Why can I not get it through my head that guys like that just don't fold
>when they are supposed to? I lost 6k chips to him. Yes, he called for
>his whole tourney with top pair weak kicker.

>No more plays against morons no more plays against morons, say it with me.

I agree with this post.

One thing I've noticed about these minbetting gobblers is they have a pattern I
call "bet little call big." While these tiny bitch bets are infuriating and can
tend to trigger your raising reflex, they very often mean a hand exactly like
this junk. Despite the fact that they bet a tiny amount, these people won't
lay down the same junk they're afraid to make a real bet with. Total calling
stations. So while a jam with a draw like this is reasonable when you have
fold equity, it isn't against a "bet little call big" gobbler. Also because of
the tiny fish bet, the pot you take down if they do fold is tiny.

The advantage in their awful play isn't that you can knock them off a hand.
You can't, as you know. But you can outdraw their semi-weak hands cheaply.
And you can relentlessly value bet into them. I had a case like this today in a
small SNG. Guy in the SB gobbles into me. I have JJ. I raise the pot. The
flop comes AJx. He minbets. I massively overbet the pot. He calls. The turn.
He minbets into me. I massively overbet the pot, all in. He calls. His hand,
A7. Against someone who wasn't a total moron, I'd know that if I reraise
preflop, then make a massive raise on the flop, then jam the turn, that
JUST POSSIBLY I have a hand that beats A7 here. But with your typical
gobbler, I know I'm getting paid bigtime.

Btw, the pattern you mention here is one of the rare reasons I use the gobble.
It is an excellent "taunt bet." It basically says "I'm a total moron with some
half-assed hand, please raise me." So I use it against aggressive players for
whom it is like waving a red flag at a bull.
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Maybe it was all an act to make you think he was a moron.

I know someone who goes into casinos in various different towns and
acts like he doesn't have a clue how to play the game, and pretending
he's unfamiliar with things like placing blinds and who's turn it is,
etc.

Rest assured that at the end of each session he nearly always comes
out with a handsome profit as his opponents fall for it every time.

And by the way I don't think he played that hand that badly. He had
top pair, and probably felt he was leading at that point. The fact
that you only limped in suggests that you are unlikely to have King
10, Ace 10 or a higher pair, so he probably put you on a flush draw,
or maybe Ace 3 or Ace 5. I probably would have reraised if I was him
to prevent you calling and hitting a possible flush or straight.

James Woolley
http://internet-poker-guide.co.uk
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On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 02:11:01 -0700, JamesW <jimrw13.RemoveThis@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>And by the way I don't think he played that hand that badly. He had
>top pair, and probably felt he was leading at that point. The fact
>that you only limped in suggests that you are unlikely to have King
>10, Ace 10 or a higher pair, so he probably put you on a flush draw,

So the proper strategy for a flush draw would be to bet the absolute
minimum to make sure it sticks around and gets the right price? Okay!

>or maybe Ace 3 or Ace 5. I probably would have reraised if I was him
>to prevent you calling and hitting a possible flush or straight.

Reraised an all-in? Nice trick! I just don't have the skills to pull off
a move like that.
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In article <hv9rl4xpd5.ln2 RemoveThis @recgroups.com>,
brewmaster <brewmaster RemoveThis @brewcam.com> wrote:

> Live tourney last night, I have a stack of over 10k with blinds at
> 200/400, ante 50 [...] He limps utg and I limp on the button with 46,
> thinking I can push this guy around.

"push him around" is exactly what you can't do. He's looking for an excuse
to call; bet into him expecting to be called.

> Flop is 35T, two diamonds. This guy gobbles.

Pot is 1800, he bets 400 into it, so you push in...

For 400 you can take one off, with six outs to felt him and nine others to
pick up the pot. You have to be 90% sure he'll fold for the push to be
better than the flat call; putting in more than double the pot on a board
with that many draws screams "semi-bluff."

> I think for awhile and then push, and he instacalls with QT NO DIAMOND.

You limped behind him. He puts you on a weakish hand, JT, T9, two diamonds
semi-bluffing. If you have A2d, A4d, 24d, or 46d you have 15 outs, making
your bet right but also making his call right. Two diamond with one pair is
14 outs (unless the pair is a ten); two diamonds with an overcard is 12
outs, as is two diamonds with a gutshot. Against these dozens of possible
hands that he's right to call against, you could have -- what? -- that would
bet that way and be wrong for him to call against. 35, bottom two? OK,
there's 9 hands, though not very likely ones. Anything better, and you
either reraise preflop or you flat call or make a smaller raise here to try
to milk him a bit.

Incidentally, you don't mention the BB. Since you limped preflop, he could
have any two. Not even a thought to the 5% chance that he himself has
enough to call or reraise here? If he calls with one of the hands I
mentioned as possible for you, you're in terrible shape, with perhaps 6 outs
against him.

> Why can I not get it through my head that guys like that just don't fold
> when they are supposed to?

"Supposed to"? You're channelling Hellmuth now?

--
Randy Hudson
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> can push this guy around. Flop is 35T, two diamonds. This guy gobbles.
> I think for awhile and then push, and he instacalls with QT NO DIAMOND.

Ok, what is "gobble"?
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On Jul 3, 7:33 pm, "brewmaster" <brewmas....DeleteThis@brewcam.com> wrote:
> Live tourney last night, I have a stack of over 10k with blinds at
> 200/400, ante 50. There is a guy at my table who may as well tattoo his
> cards to his forehead. He looks at his cards as soon as he gets them, he
> makes huge bets in any position with big hands, and limp calls with almost
> anything else. He limps utg and I limp on the button with 46, thinking I
> can push this guy around. Flop is 35T, two diamonds. This guy gobbles.
> I think for awhile and then push, and he instacalls with QT NO DIAMOND.
> Why can I not get it through my head that guys like that just don't fold
> when they are supposed to? I lost 6k chips to him. Yes, he called for
> his whole tourney with top pair weak kicker.

You were outplayed. Congratulations.

Or, to put it another way, "top pair ten kicker is a monster compared
to the crap you play"
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On Jul 5, 4:35 pm, "IndyPaul" <s....TakeThisOut@REMOVEcomcast.net> wrote:
> > can push this guy around. Flop is 35T, two diamonds. This guy gobbles.
> > I think for awhile and then push, and he instacalls with QT NO DIAMOND.
>
> Ok, what is "gobble"?

It's a term losers use to describe those who beat them, especially
when their demise involves a minbet trap like this one.
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On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 23:13:30 -0400, A Man Beaten by Jacks
<nobody.RemoveThis@fool.foo> wrote:

> I had a case like this today in a
>small SNG. Guy in the SB gobbles into me. I have JJ. I raise the pot. The
>flop comes AJx. He minbets. I massively overbet the pot. He calls. The turn.
>He minbets into me. I massively overbet the pot, all in. He calls. His hand,
>A7.

In other words, SB was a man beaten by Jacks.
--

~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
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