How to play a monster draw?

On Jul 23 2008 12:43 PM, Borat wrote:

> Hey folks,
>
> Had a very interesting hand in a tournament recently... blinds were
> $50-100, and we all had about $2000 in chips... I was in early
> position with QJs and I decided to call, as there wasn't much raising
> pre-flop... only the big blind stayed in for the flop, which was:
>
> 9T2
>
> Giving me a straight flush draw...
>
> Big Blind bets $400 chips, a strong bet for that board, representing a
> pair perhaps...
>
> I decided that I was gonna semi-bluff, so I raised it $400 more to
> $800 total...
>
> The guy thought for a long time and then folded... the dealer
> revealed the last 2 cards, which turned out to be King that gave me a
> straight flush!!!
>
> So if I had merely just called, I would have hit a straight flush and
> busted the guy probably..
>
> Questions:
>
> 1. Did I do the wrong thing by raising and ruining possible later
> action?
>
> 2. If he had re-raised me all in after I raised it to $800, would it
> have been correct to call with that monster draw?
>
> Thanks..
>
> Borat

1.You won the pot with no hand? And you are asking if it is a bad thing
?? hell no it isnt!!

However , minraising there with a draw is TERRIBLE. if you are going to
raise with a draw.. raise enough to try to win the pot

2. of course you would .. why would it even be a question ? Your hand is
stronger than A 10 there

are you actually plaing for money ?

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On Jul 23 2008 12:43 PM, Borat wrote:

> Hey folks,
>
> Had a very interesting hand in a tournament recently... blinds were
> $50-100, and we all had about $2000 in chips... I was in early
> position with QJs and I decided to call, as there wasn't much raising
> pre-flop... only the big blind stayed in for the flop, which was:

If there wasn't much raising pre-flop, why didn't you raise?

> 9T2
>
> Giving me a straight flush draw...
>
> Big Blind bets $400 chips, a strong bet for that board, representing a
> pair perhaps...
>
> I decided that I was gonna semi-bluff, so I raised it $400 more to
> $800 total...
>
> The guy thought for a long time and then folded... the dealer
> revealed the last 2 cards, which turned out to be King that gave me a
> straight flush!!!
>
> So if I had merely just called, I would have hit a straight flush and
> busted the guy probably..

What makes you think you would have busted the guy? Just because you
would have made a hand doesn't mean your opponent is just going to hand
his stack to you.

> Questions:
>
> 1. Did I do the wrong thing by raising and ruining possible later
> action?
>
> 2. If he had re-raised me all in after I raised it to $800, would it
> have been correct to call with that monster draw?

Based on these questions I'd recommend picking up a book or two.
Harrington's tourney books are probably the best reading. Your question
#2 is a straight forward pot odds question that you should have been able
to answer before even sitting at the table.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy RemoveThis @donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

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 >> Stay informed about: How to play a monster draw? 

Since we do not know what the guy folded, it seems likely that he had
less than TPTK, and possibly was on nothing, given the flop.

In your position, depending on other specifics, I might well have
raised even with nothing in my hand at all, as a counter-bluff. (Of
course, the details of the situation would be crucial.) So I have to
say that your raise was proper, and especially with a superdraw.

Just the other day I was coaching Doyle Brunson on a very similar
situation....




On Jul 23, 1:43 pm, Borat <iamadon....RemoveThis@heehaw.com> wrote:
> Hey folks,
>
> Had a very interesting hand in a tournament recently... blinds were
> $50-100, and we all had about $2000 in chips...  I was in early
> position with QJs and I decided to call, as there wasn't much raising
> pre-flop...   only the big blind stayed in for the flop, which was:
>
> 9T2
>
> Giving me a straight flush draw...
>
> Big Blind bets $400 chips, a strong bet for that board, representing a
> pair perhaps...
>
> I decided that I was gonna semi-bluff, so I raised it $400 more to
> $800 total...
>
> The guy thought for a long time and then folded...  the dealer
> revealed the last 2 cards, which turned out to be King that gave me a
> straight flush!!!
>
> So if I had merely just called, I would have hit a straight flush and
> busted the guy probably..
>
> Questions:
>
> 1. Did I do the wrong thing by raising and ruining possible later
> action?
>
> 2. If he had re-raised me all in after I raised it to $800, would it
> have been correct to call with that monster draw?
>
> Thanks..
>
> Borat
 >> Stay informed about: How to play a monster draw? 

On Jul 23 2008 1:43 PM, Borat wrote:

> Hey folks,
>
> Had a very interesting hand in a tournament recently... blinds were
> $50-100, and we all had about $2000 in chips... I was in early
> position with QJs and I decided to call, as there wasn't much raising
> pre-flop... only the big blind stayed in for the flop, which was:
>
> 9T2
>
> Giving me a straight flush draw...
>
> Big Blind bets $400 chips, a strong bet for that board, representing a
> pair perhaps...
>
> I decided that I was gonna semi-bluff, so I raised it $400 more to
> $800 total...

You're pricing him in to call with an awful lot of hands here.

>
> The guy thought for a long time and then folded...

Which means he didn't have much and was probably just making a play at the
limped pot... 400 bet into a 250 pot?

the dealer
> revealed the last 2 cards, which turned out to be King that gave me a
> straight flush!!!
>
> So if I had merely just called, I would have hit a straight flush and
> busted the guy probably..

You only bust the guy if he has a hand. Since he didn't call your min
raise, you probably don't bust him... Looks pretty, though.

>
> Questions:
>
> 1. Did I do the wrong thing by raising and ruining possible later
> action?
>
> 2. If he had re-raised me all in after I raised it to $800, would it
> have been correct to call with that monster draw?
>
> Thanks..
>
> Borat

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 >> Stay informed about: How to play a monster draw? 

You have to raise there. You are a big favorite versus any hand
except AKs or a set. You are still about a coin flip with those
(slight dog versus AKs slight favorite versus set). You are a huge
favorite versus A10 or similar (K10, A9, 88, etc). Additionally if
you call you might not get any action if your outs come unless it is a
counterfeited out.

Try and get all both your chips in on the flop somehow or to the point
where you are both pot committed. A little bigger raise might be
better depending on how the BB responds to a min raise.

BTW Lute min raise bluffs with anything but deepstacks are for idiots.
 >> Stay informed about: How to play a monster draw? 

On Jul 23 2008 1:15 PM, XaQ Morphy wrote:

> On Jul 23 2008 12:43 PM, Borat wrote:
>
> > Hey folks,
> >
> > Had a very interesting hand in a tournament recently... blinds were
> > $50-100, and we all had about $2000 in chips... I was in early
> > position with QJs and I decided to call, as there wasn't much raising
> > pre-flop... only the big blind stayed in for the flop, which was:
>
> If there wasn't much raising pre-flop, why didn't you raise?

NO WONDER YOU ARE BROKE !!!
>
> > 9T2
> >
> > Giving me a straight flush draw...
> >
> > Big Blind bets $400 chips, a strong bet for that board, representing a
> > pair perhaps...
> >
> > I decided that I was gonna semi-bluff, so I raised it $400 more to
> > $800 total...
> >
> > The guy thought for a long time and then folded... the dealer
> > revealed the last 2 cards, which turned out to be King that gave me a
> > straight flush!!!
> >
> > So if I had merely just called, I would have hit a straight flush and
> > busted the guy probably..
>
> What makes you think you would have busted the guy? Just because you
> would have made a hand doesn't mean your opponent is just going to hand
> his stack to you.
>
> > Questions:
> >
> > 1. Did I do the wrong thing by raising and ruining possible later
> > action?
> >
> > 2. If he had re-raised me all in after I raised it to $800, would it
> > have been correct to call with that monster draw?
>
> Based on these questions I'd recommend picking up a book or two.
> Harrington's tourney books are probably the best reading. Your question
> #2 is a straight forward pot odds question that you should have been able
> to answer before even sitting at the table.
>
> ---
> Morphy
> xaqmorphy.DeleteThis@donkeymanifesto.com
> http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

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On Jul 23 2008 12:43 PM, Borat wrote:

> Hey folks,
>
> Had a very interesting hand in a tournament recently... blinds were
> $50-100, and we all had about $2000 in chips... I was in early
> position with QJs and I decided to call, as there wasn't much raising
> pre-flop... only the big blind stayed in for the flop, which was:
>
> 9T2
>
> Giving me a straight flush draw...
>
> Big Blind bets $400 chips, a strong bet for that board, representing a
> pair perhaps...
>
> I decided that I was gonna semi-bluff, so I raised it $400 more to
> $800 total...

Min raises are terrible under any circumstance.

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On Jul 23 2008 2:40 PM, K9way wrote:

> > If there wasn't much raising pre-flop, why didn't you raise?
>
> NO WONDER YOU ARE BROKE !!!

Who said I was broke? I just cashed out $2500 last week.

Besides, there's more to poker than the hole cards. Anyone who can beat
$10 sngs should be able to figure that out. Oh wait, nevermind. I forgot
who I was talking to for a second.

---
Morphy
xaqmorphy DeleteThis @donkeymanifesto.com
http://www.donkeymanifesto.com

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 >> Stay informed about: How to play a monster draw? 

The first thing to do is stop thinking about the best hand as a draw.
It's not a draw. It's the best hand.


On Jul 23 2008 1:43 PM, Borat wrote:

> Hey folks,
>
> Had a very interesting hand in a tournament recently... blinds were
> $50-100, and we all had about $2000 in chips... I was in early
> position with QJs and I decided to call, as there wasn't much raising
> pre-flop... only the big blind stayed in for the flop, which was:
>
> 9T2
>
> Giving me a straight flush draw...
>
> Big Blind bets $400 chips, a strong bet for that board, representing a
> pair perhaps...
>
> I decided that I was gonna semi-bluff, so I raised it $400 more to
> $800 total...
>
> The guy thought for a long time and then folded... the dealer
> revealed the last 2 cards, which turned out to be King that gave me a
> straight flush!!!
>
> So if I had merely just called, I would have hit a straight flush and
> busted the guy probably..
>
> Questions:
>
> 1. Did I do the wrong thing by raising and ruining possible later
> action?
>
> 2. If he had re-raised me all in after I raised it to $800, would it
> have been correct to call with that monster draw?
>
> Thanks..
>
> Borat

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On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:43:34 -0500, Borat <iamadonkey RemoveThis @heehaw.com>
wrote:

>Hey folks,

>Had a very interesting hand in a tournament recently... blinds were
>$50-100, and we all had about $2000 in chips... I was in early
>position with QJs and I decided to call, as there wasn't much raising
>pre-flop... only the big blind stayed in for the flop, which was:

>9T2

>Giving me a straight flush draw...

>Big Blind bets $400 chips, a strong bet for that board, representing a
>pair perhaps...

>I decided that I was gonna semi-bluff, so I raised it $400 more to
>$800 total...

>The guy thought for a long time and then folded... the dealer
>revealed the last 2 cards, which turned out to be King that gave me a
>straight flush!!!

>So if I had merely just called, I would have hit a straight flush and
>busted the guy probably..

>Questions:

>1. Did I do the wrong thing by raising and ruining possible later
>action?

>2. If he had re-raised me all in after I raised it to $800, would it
>have been correct to call with that monster draw?

Yes, unless he was particularly tight. You'd have been a slight
favorite (55/45) even to aces, and you'd be a slight favorite even
against top two pair (51.5/48.5). The only hand you'd be even a
moderate dog to would be top set (42/5. You'd be freerolling or
almost freerolling against equal or worse flush and straight draws.

>Thanks..

The great thing about a monster draw is they can be played in a lot of
ways. Usually, you have a lot of discretion. Acquiring a big stack
is important in a tournament, and so is survival. I think you played
the hand fine, but in this case, chasing the draw had the bigger
chance of a big payoff. Your play here is partly determined by
whether you prefer to chip up slowly by taking down a lot of small
pots or acquiring a big stack by gambling. Either play is fine. If
you could have gotten it all in on the flop and flipped, that would
have been fine (you'd have been a slight favorite even against aces).

One potential worry on the flop with a monster draw is you don't want
to be in a situation where you end up with the pot being the size of
your stack (or your opponent's stack) by the turn. In that case, you
can end up paying full price on the flop and being priced out on the
turn. In this case, even though you're a favorite on the flop, you
can be a dog in the hand. Generally, though, you're only in this
situation if your opponent plays optimally and actually knows your
hand. So while raising as a semi-bluff could get you in trouble on
the turn, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It could just as easily
buy you a free card if you miss the turn, or give YOU the chance to
go all in on the turn if you think he's weak and won't call.

Later in the tournament, the payouts may make it proper NOT to play
such a hand, even in multiway pots. For an example of this, see how
Paul Wasicka played a crucial hand in the 2007 WSOP Main Event versus
Michael Binger and Jamie Gold. If you can figure out why he folded
that open ended straight flush draw and why it was right, you'll
understand this issue. I give that particular example because I
didn't understand that issue clearly before I put some serious thought
into that hand.

In any case, I think your semi-bluff was fine, but just calling and
trapping him for the rest of his stack if you hit would also have been
fine. If you just called the flop, he could have overbet the pot and
gone all in on the turn, pricing you out, but I wouldn't worry too
much about that unless the stacks were shorter (in which case I'd want
it all in on the flop).
 >> Stay informed about: How to play a monster draw? 

On Jul 23, 1:49 pm, "garycarson" <garycar....TakeThisOut@alumni.northwestern.edu>
wrote:
> The first thing to do is stop thinking about the best hand as a draw.
> It's not a draw.  It's the best hand.


Be careful, you might make his head explode.


Best wishes on your continuing recovery.

Michael
U.S. American
 >> Stay informed about: How to play a monster draw? 

On Jul 23 2008 2:02 PM, cpdeadhead wrote:

> You have to raise there. You are a big favorite versus any hand
> except AKs or a set. You are still about a coin flip with those
> (slight dog versus AKs slight favorite versus set).

HEY MORON .. HE IS NOT FAVORED OVER A SET HERE..NEVER

And what in the hell is a "counterfeited out"?

This is why Scooters will always be scooters !!



You are a huge
> favorite versus A10 or similar (K10, A9, 88, etc). Additionally if
> you call you might not get any action if your outs come unless it is a
> counterfeited out.
>
> Try and get all both your chips in on the flop somehow or to the point
> where you are both pot committed. A little bigger raise might be
> better depending on how the BB responds to a min raise.
>
> BTW Lute min raise bluffs with anything but deepstacks are for idiots.

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chandler wrote:

> > Had a very interesting hand in a tournament recently... blinds were
> > $50-100, and we all had about $2000 in chips... I was in early
> > position with QJs and I decided to call, as there wasn't much raising
> > pre-flop... only the big blind stayed in for the flop, which was:
> >
> > 9T2
> >
> > Big Blind bets $400 chips
> > I decided that I was gonna semi-bluff, so I raised it $400
>
> You're pricing him in to call with an awful lot of hands here.

Not really; the BB has 1600 chips left here so
he can't call here unless he's happy to go to
the river. Only gumbies call 1/4 of their stack
and then fold, barring a very solid read.

If he will call 400 here he will call 800 or 1200.

The minraise is bad here because: If the
opponent has nothing (most likely case),
it doesn't matter how much you raise; but
if the opponent has something then you
want to get all his money now before a
scare card comes and kills the action.

You DON'T want the opponent to flat
call, on the turn because if
the turn helps you it kills the action,
and if it is a brick then suddenly you
are a dog in the hand.

Another point is that the opponent might
take your minraise as weakness and go
all in. Of course this is still +cEV for you,
you aren't unhappy if he calls, but in a
SNG at this stage you would prefer to
take down 650 chips without a fight, than
to flip a coin for 2050.
 >> Stay informed about: How to play a monster draw?