skill is overrated

On Jan 15, 1:48�pm, "Wayne Vinson" <a7a8....TakeThisOut@webnntp.invalid> wrote:
> On Jan 15 2008 2:06 PM, alan wrote:
>
> > Ive only been playing live poker for a little more than two years, but
> > I can't help but think that "skill" is overrated and this is primarily
> > a game of luck.
>
> Ok, you're right, it's all luck. �I'm just incredibly lucky. �That's why I
> keep winning. �I feel sorry for all those unlucky souls who can't match my
> ability to catch cards. �Sucks to be them.
>
> Wayne Vinsonhttp://cardsharp.org
> Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com
>
> ------�
> looking for a better newsgroup-reader? -www.recgroups.com

No Wayne, I said its primarily a game of luck and luck is overrated.
YOU said its all luck, but i know you are being facetious. try again.
 >> Stay informed about: skill is overrated 

On Jan 15 2008 12:18 PM, alan wrote:

> On Jan 15, 12:10�pm, David Nicoson <bigda....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 15, 3:06 pm, alan <mone....TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The skill factor? �Had the player with KK made a big raise pre flop I
> > > might have folded... well, I probably wouldn't have, but theoretically
> > > I might have.
> >
> > The skill factor is that a good player will fold KK after all that
> > action on that board.
>
> I doubt that. But nice try.

As others have already said, pretty easy fold actually.

>
> also last night, pre flop, two players are all in. one has KK another
> AA. did you really expect the KK player to fold when another player
> was all in? does the KK player "know" that the other player is
> holding AA ??

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On Jan 15 2008 3:39 PM, alan wrote:

> On Jan 15, 1:14�pm, "WuzYoungOnceToo" <WuzYoungOnce....DeleteThis@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > On Jan 15 2008 2:06 PM, alan wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > The skill factor? �Had the player with KK made a big raise pre flop I
> > > might have folded... well, I probably wouldn't have, but theoretically
> > > I might have.
> >
> > I think we've found your biggest problem. �You think poker is about
> > theoretical possibilities, rather than probabilities.
> >
> > ------�
> > looking for a better newsgroup-reader? -www.recgroups.com
>
> Wuz, please explain. This is "foreign" to me. thanks.

What is "foreign" to you? The meanings of "possible" and "probable"?

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> No Wayne, I said its primarily a game of luck and luck is overrated.
> YOU said its all luck, but i know you are being facetious. try again.

You're just jealous that you can't match my card catching abilities. And
well you should be - you're no where near as lucky as I am.

Just flopped a nut straight with 74o. Played it out of position for a
raise to boot. Isn't that hilarious? Looks like villain's got an
overpair too! Say, how have you been running?

Wayne Vinson
http://cardsharp.org
Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com

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 >> Stay informed about: skill is overrated 

Imagine poker is the following game.

9 people around the table. They all put 15 dollars in, the dealer deals
out two cards to everyone face up. Then deals out all five cards in the
middle and the best hand wins. No rake, no drop, no toking.

In the short-term some will be losers and some will be winners, if you
win more that 1/9 of the pots over the time period you will win. If you
win less then you lose. Over a longer and longer period of time.
There will be occasional big losers, and occasional big winners, but
most people will just break even.

This is luck.

Now imagine the same game with the cards turned over and the betting
rounds happen preflop, postflop, postturn and post river. Now the game
has mistakes. Making less mistakes, and capitalizing on your opponents
mistakes is the skill. This is not easy, and the mistakes are varied
and interesting. Many just make too many mistakes and lose very
quickly. Many only master a few scenarios, and develop styles that can
be abused by others and they lose. A few can play different styles,
simply know more moves and situations, and bend like a reed to their
opponent to take them down. These most skillful players win. At the
expense of most others.

This is skill.

It is not about any given hand. It is not about any given play. It is
about the whole session/tourney/game/life. It is about managing the
luck, it is about managing your money, it is about managing the other
players. And you are not playing machines, but rather people who are
attempting to do the exact same to you. You just need to be better at it.

Poker is interesting precisely because there is luck. That in the short
term the unskilled can beat the skilled. That the unskilled can be
misled because of this.

But that said, lucky is a lot better than good. The good are just luckier.
 >> Stay informed about: skill is overrated 

On Jan 15 2008 6:26 PM, johnny_t wrote:

> Imagine poker is the following game.
>
> 9 people around the table. They all put 15 dollars in, the dealer deals
> out two cards to everyone face up. Then deals out all five cards in the
> middle and the best hand wins. No rake, no drop, no toking.
>
> In the short-term some will be losers and some will be winners, if you
> win more that 1/9 of the pots over the time period you will win. If you
> win less then you lose. Over a longer and longer period of time.
> There will be occasional big losers, and occasional big winners, but
> most people will just break even.
>
> This is luck.
>
> Now imagine the same game with the cards turned over and the betting
> rounds happen preflop, postflop, postturn and post river. Now the game
> has mistakes. Making less mistakes, and capitalizing on your opponents
> mistakes is the skill. This is not easy, and the mistakes are varied
> and interesting. Many just make too many mistakes and lose very
> quickly. Many only master a few scenarios, and develop styles that can
> be abused by others and they lose. A few can play different styles,
> simply know more moves and situations, and bend like a reed to their
> opponent to take them down. These most skillful players win. At the
> expense of most others.
>
> This is skill.
>
> It is not about any given hand. It is not about any given play. It is
> about the whole session/tourney/game/life. It is about managing the
> luck, it is about managing your money, it is about managing the other
> players. And you are not playing machines, but rather people who are
> attempting to do the exact same to you. You just need to be better at it.
>
> Poker is interesting precisely because there is luck. That in the short
> term the unskilled can beat the skilled. That the unskilled can be
> misled because of this.
>
> But that said, lucky is a lot better than good. The good are just luckier.

This is a great post.

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On Jan 15 2008 3:06 PM, alan wrote:

> Ive only been playing live poker for a little more than two years, but
> I can't help but think that "skill" is overrated and this is primarily
> a game of luck.
>
> skill? yeah, when there are found clubs on the board and your pocket
> aces are both red, and there are three other players in the hand...
> skill tells you not to bet. put it another way, when you have AA
> (both red) you want to make a huge bet so that you aren't facing a
> showdown with four clubs on the board. okay, I concede that is the
> "skill" part of the game.
>
> now the luck... gosh, did I see LUCK rule the day (or the night) last
> night in a $100 live game at Hollywood Park. (blinds are $3 and $2)
>
> In my biggest win of the night (a pot worth more than $400) I have JJ
> under the gun. I raise the BB to $15 and I get four callers. So
> there is now $75+ in the pot.
>
> The flop comes 5-5-J. (I flop a full house)
>
> I am first to act and bet $50 (less than the pot).
> Player to my immediate left raises to $100.
> Two other players fold. the last of the four callers goes all in for
> his remaining $55 or so.
>
> Actionn comes back to me and I reraise to $200.
> Player to my left goes all in.
> Action back to me and Im all in.
>
> The turn and the river are both blanks for we three players.
>
> End result-- I win with JJJ55.
> The player to my immediate left had KK.
> The third player had A-5.
>
> The skill factor? Had the player with KK made a big raise pre flop I
> might have folded... well, I probably wouldn't have, but theoretically
> I might have.
>
> The luck factor? How lucky I was to flop a full house with JJ when
> another player had KK and didn't hit??? Amazing.

I heard somewhere

The skill in poker is putting yourself in to a position of luck.

or something like that.

Chris
----------------------
No point in being pessimistic. It wouldn't work anyway. - 6ballman - Feb 2007



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On Jan 15 2008 2:18 PM, alan wrote:

> On Jan 15, 12:10=EF=BF=BDpm, David Nicoson <bigda....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 15, 3:06 pm, alan <mone....RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The skill factor? =EF=BF=BDHad the player with KK made a big raise pre f=
> lop I
> > > might have folded... well, I probably wouldn't have, but theoretically
> > > I might have.
> >
> > The skill factor is that a good player will fold KK after all that
> > action on that board.
>
> I doubt that.

Then you're an idiot and there's nothing more to discuss.



Gary Carson
http://www.garycarson.com



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On Jan 15 2008 8:06 PM, alan wrote:

>>
> End result-- I win with JJJ55.
> The player to my immediate left had KK.
> The third player had A-5.
>


The skill factors lacking in this hand are:  Dont fuck about with KK preflop.
WTF was KK doing flat calling a raise either with people behind him, or with
callers to the raise?

First lesson, KK, and for that matter, AA, are not unbeatable in a 7 card game. 
Raise it up preflop, and charge the buggers dearly to bust your hand.

Second lesson.  On a flop J55, KK had no right to stack off with 4 players.  If
it were a heads-up pot, ok, maybe he got a little unlucky.  But with 3 other
players, time to muck in the face of strong action.

Here endth the lesson.



http://nickspokerblog.myblog.com/



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On Jan 15 2008 8:18 PM, alan wrote:

> On Jan 15, 12:10=EF=BF=BDpm, David Nicoson wrote:

>
> I doubt that. But nice try.

Whu do you doubt that?  I;ve muck AA UTG when there were 4 players to my preflop
raise, and flop was 9T5.  I checked, checked to button, who bet 1/2 pot.  BB min
raised.  My aces went into the muck faster than you can say 'I doubt it'. 
Button folded, and BB showed his 9T.

> also last night, pre flop, two players are all in. one has KK another
> AA. did you really expect the KK player to fold when another player
> was all in? does the KK player "know" that the other player is
> holding AA ??

Learn the difference between mucking KK preflop, and post flop. 
http://nickspokerblog.myblog.com/



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if you cant lay down KK on that flop and action - find another game
dont play no limit at any level anywhere

alan wrote:
> Ive only been playing live poker for a little more than two years, but
> I can't help but think that "skill" is overrated and this is primarily
> a game of luck.
>
> skill? yeah, when there are found clubs on the board and your pocket
> aces are both red, and there are three other players in the hand...
> skill tells you not to bet. put it another way, when you have AA
> (both red) you want to make a huge bet so that you aren't facing a
> showdown with four clubs on the board. okay, I concede that is the
> "skill" part of the game.
>
> now the luck... gosh, did I see LUCK rule the day (or the night) last
> night in a $100 live game at Hollywood Park. (blinds are $3 and $2)
>
> In my biggest win of the night (a pot worth more than $400) I have JJ
> under the gun. I raise the BB to $15 and I get four callers. So
> there is now $75+ in the pot.
>
> The flop comes 5-5-J. (I flop a full house)
>
> I am first to act and bet $50 (less than the pot).
> Player to my immediate left raises to $100.
> Two other players fold. the last of the four callers goes all in for
> his remaining $55 or so.
>
> Actionn comes back to me and I reraise to $200.
> Player to my left goes all in.
> Action back to me and Im all in.
>
> The turn and the river are both blanks for we three players.
>
> End result-- I win with JJJ55.
> The player to my immediate left had KK.
> The third player had A-5.
>
> The skill factor? Had the player with KK made a big raise pre flop I
> might have folded... well, I probably wouldn't have, but theoretically
> I might have.
>
> The luck factor? How lucky I was to flop a full house with JJ when
> another player had KK and didn't hit??? Amazing.
>
 >> Stay informed about: skill is overrated 

alan wrote:
> On Jan 15, 1:48�pm, "Wayne Vinson" <a7a8... RemoveThis @webnntp.invalid> wrote:
>> On Jan 15 2008 2:06 PM, alan wrote:
>>
>>> Ive only been playing live poker for a little more than two years, but
>>> I can't help but think that "skill" is overrated and this is primarily
>>> a game of luck.
>> Ok, you're right, it's all luck. �I'm just incredibly lucky. �That's why I
>> keep winning. �I feel sorry for all those unlucky souls who can't match my
>> ability to catch cards. �Sucks to be them.
>>
>> Wayne Vinsonhttp://cardsharp.org
>> Wayne (dot) Vinson (at) gmail (dot) com
>>
>> ------�
>> looking for a better newsgroup-reader? -www.recgroups.com
>
> No Wayne, I said its primarily a game of luck and luck is overrated.
> YOU said its all luck, but i know you are being facetious. try again.

It's only primarily luck in the short term, over the longer haul
it's pure skill. In a random five table tourney, given the same
cards, a skillful player will finish much higher virtually every
time than an unskilled one just because he will observe cues and
recognize when to make plays and when to sit tight. His use of
pot odds, patience, careful aggression and position will give
him an immediate advantage over the average player. Finishing
consistently high is the key to cashing.
 >> Stay informed about: skill is overrated 

"alan" <moneyla.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a3994090-25f3-4b30-bbec-2676dc5ed3ab@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> Ive only been playing live poker for a little more than two years, but
> I can't help but think that "skill" is overrated and this is primarily
> a game of luck.
>
> skill? yeah, when there are found clubs on the board and your pocket
> aces are both red, and there are three other players in the hand...
> skill tells you not to bet. put it another way, when you have AA
> (both red) you want to make a huge bet so that you aren't facing a
> showdown with four clubs on the board. okay, I concede that is the
> "skill" part of the game.
>
> now the luck... gosh, did I see LUCK rule the day (or the night) last
> night in a $100 live game at Hollywood Park. (blinds are $3 and $2)
>
> In my biggest win of the night (a pot worth more than $400) I have JJ
> under the gun. I raise the BB to $15 and I get four callers. So
> there is now $75+ in the pot.
>
> The flop comes 5-5-J. (I flop a full house)
>
> I am first to act and bet $50 (less than the pot).
> Player to my immediate left raises to $100.
> Two other players fold. the last of the four callers goes all in for
> his remaining $55 or so.
>
> Actionn comes back to me and I reraise to $200.
> Player to my left goes all in.
> Action back to me and Im all in.
>
> The turn and the river are both blanks for we three players.
>
> End result-- I win with JJJ55.
> The player to my immediate left had KK.
> The third player had A-5.
>
> The skill factor? Had the player with KK made a big raise pre flop I
> might have folded... well, I probably wouldn't have, but theoretically
> I might have.
>
> The luck factor? How lucky I was to flop a full house with JJ when
> another player had KK and didn't hit??? Amazing.
>
Pathetic ridiculous play by KK which got exactly what it deserved.

Palooka
 >> Stay informed about: skill is overrated